Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear? - Page 4 — Brooklynian

Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?

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  • Can I donate to the ACLU instead?

    Doesn't that make more sense than an early AM standoff with the police, wherein the police may have the legal right to do what they are doing?

    This is a long term struggle, I continue to believe those fighting short term battles with no goals or direction are misguided. I will let the lawyers decide whether they have a case and need my support.

    I am confident there will be enough media on scene to document the event for the lawyers.

  • The general public will file such folks under the "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

    Your ability to gauge public opinion is truly impressive.

    It's also fortuitous that it frequently agrees with your opinion.

    But you wouldn't project your beliefs onto the entire public, right?

  • As hoped, everyone is slowly getting smarter!

    In advance of being notified "we are going to clean this park and then not let you have tarps or be on the ground", the protesters cleaned the park themselves.

    This will allowed all sides (Brookfield, the police, the general public, the protesters) to step backward while calling the other "wusses", and resume their prior antics.

    I hope everyone still has an interest in this story, because there is supposed to be more fun tomorrow!

    11AM - MOVE YOUR MONEY MARCH TO CHASE

    From Zucotti to Chase

    We will then march to student meet up at Wash. Sq. Park

    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=281685291856534

    ---moveyourmoneyproject.org---

    12PM - ANTI-WAR MARCH AND TEACH-IN

    Wall Street And Broadway

    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=207384415996685

    12PM - MASS STUDENT GENERAL ASSEMBLY

    Washington Square Park -

    Student meet up and student loan lender bank action

    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=211491108917148

    3:30PM - ENVIRONMENTAL ACTION AGAINST MOUNTAIN TOP REMOVAL

    New York Public Library Main Entrance

    42 and 5th avenue

    4PM - OCCU-PIE TIMES SQUARE RECRUITMENT CENTER

    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=213236302076072

    5PM - TAKE TIME SQUARE CONVERGENCE/ OCCUPATION PARTY

    http://www.theoccupationparty.com/

    &

    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=159911157436152

    PROMO VIDEO FOR TIMES SQUARE EVENT

  • I'll take that as a no.

    In related news, I regret voting for a 1%-er to be king of our city. Some facts:

    http://www.juancole.com/2011/10/mayor-bloomberg-and-occupy-wall-street-by-the-numbers.html

    Percentage of Americans who approve of Occupy Wall Street: 54

    Percentage of Americans who say that the gap between the rich and the poor has grown too large: 79

    Percentage of Americans who say the rich should pay more in taxes: 68

    Percentage of Americans who approve of the Tea Party: 27

    Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s ranking in Forbes’ list of the 400 richest Americans: 8

    Bloomberg’s net worth: $20 billion

    Amount Bloomberg spent of his own fortune on his two mayoral campaigns in New York: $159 million

    Percentage of all US economic growth in past decade that went to the top 1% of income earners: 65

    The combined net worth of the 400 wealthiest Americans, as measured by Forbes magazine in 2007: $1.5 trillion

    The combined net worth of the poorer 50 percent of American households in 2007: $1.6 trillion

    Number of times Bloomberg promised that the Occupy Wall Street protesters could “stay indefinitely”: 1

    Average salaries in New York’s securities industry in 2010: $361,330

    Average increase in compensation for those in the securities industry over the past 30 years: 11%

    Average salary of Wall Street financiers against whom the protesters were protesting, according to Bloomberg (saying they “are struggling to make ends meet”): $45,000-$50,000

    Average increase in compensation for private-sector employees outside securities industry during the past 30 years: 1.8%

    Average price inflation rate during past 30 years: roughly 3%

    Decline in average wage of the average middle class family in past decade: 7%

    Decline in the average income of the average poor family in the past ten years: 12%

    Number of times Bloomberg maintained that it was unwise to protest banks because it would discourage them from lending money and so cost jobs: 2

    Rate at which the volume of commercial and industrial bank loans grew in the second quarter of 2011: 9.6%

  • I'm glad that some of tomorrow's events are issue based, and include teach-ins.

    If "Occupy" gets its act together, they could become a broad based political action group like ACORN was.

    I hope they soon find and embrace articulate leaders that understand the larger context of our country's problems and propose workable solutions. Come on OWS, you can do it! You can do more than sleep outside and say "this sucks".

  • All they've managed to do is elevate a national dialogue about how the other 99% of us are living.

    Can't they achieve something!???

  • The wages, wealth, and standard of living of the working class, and low-middle classes of Americans have remained pretty stagnant since something like 1975. Over the last 10 years, this phenomena has affected the middle, and upper middle class too.

    Are people just now becoming aware of this?

    Are people just now talking about this?

    If you answer "yes", I think you have been watching too much media that is focused on "today's news".

    The real mess/dialogue/protests will come if Washington does not increase taxes on the rich, and the federal government goes into austerity.

    Then, we will be like the rest of the world.

  • Are people just now talking about this?

    The traditional media?

    You could barely even say they've STARTED talking about it, let alone BEEN talking about it.

    And by "talking about it" I mean, "portraying it as an unproven idea held by non-serious Americans", I do not mean, "Talking about it b/c it is a legitimate, statically verifiable fact and is the most important thing to Americans who are not the wealthiest 10%, members of congress, or paid vast sums to appear on television and tell us that the real problem with this country is social security reform".

    If you disagree with this, I think your concept of where most Americans get their information (if they get any information) is sadly distorted.

  • Regardless of where they get their information, or whether they get any at all, I think most people are aware their wages, wealth, and standard of living have gone down over the last twenty years or so.

    They are also likely aware that the rich have gotten richer.

    Like the protesters, many do not know what (if anything) they would like to do about the situation. Unless they get their acts together, they also lack the means to get anything done.

    I suspect that it will take Austerity before people really get upset. Even then, I doubt they will understand the larger global forces or speak with a unified voice.

  • This IS people getting upset, it's just not happening how you want it to.

  • ???

    I have always hoped they get their acts together.

    After some missteps, they are slowing achieving this. They are:

    - figuring things out

    - silencing the revolutionaries

    - getting good advice

    - joining existing campaigns.

    I'm told some of them came to the HSC Austerity Breakfast, and were well behaved:

    Although OWS is going slower than I want it to, and with more missteps, it is happening exactly as I want.

    Myself and others will continue to give OWS the mocking and advice they need, and I hope they will not self-destruct before they can implement it.

  • I'll have to take your word for it.

    It's very hard to cut through your constant condescension and mockery.

  • Being condescended to and mocked is often an essential part of making potential malcontents grow-up and participate in mitigating the problems.

    I have made it no secret that want the group to grow up and leave their juvenile antics and members behind, as quickly as possible.

  • I hope the version that is scheduled to take place at Grand Army Plaza at 11 AM tomorrow avoids some of the problems that have plagued the Manhattan version.

  • And what problems are you insinuating are plaguing our movement? Nice job at trying to create dissension among the ranks, bro.

  • HectorS said:

    And what problems are you insinuating are plaguing our movement?

    Casual anti-Semitism and calls for violence, for starters.




  • Jimmy-

    There are idiots on all sides of the political spectrum, and such people are attracted to demonstrations to forward their own goals. For example, by holding a sign that says "I hate xyz (insert racial, religious, sexual orientation group)" or "Kill the cops", the individual may hope that impressionable people follow his/her advice because s/he genuinely hates the police or the group of people.

    In other instances, attendees may have an agenda beyond what is stated on their sign; they wish for impressionable people (viewers, attendees) to believe that the crowd is hate filled people. They have figured out that "hating" has a damaging stigma attached to it, and sometimes act as if they "hate" a group of people even though they merely wish to taint image of the crowd in the eyes of the media or viewers.

    While it is difficult for growing movements (such as the Tea Party and "Occupy") to eliminate such people from their events, steps can be taken to mitigate their impact.

    For example, by stating goals, (In the case of Occupy, they might choose "Reform the Tax Code to be more progressive") an event is assumed to be FOR something and it is more difficult for the media or attendees to say the event is about something else (racial hatred, conflict with the police, etc).

    Appointing an articulate leader also allows movements to effectively dismiss people. For example, the Tea Party now has chapter heads so it can distance itself from idiots who talk to the media while carrying a "Don't Tread on Me" flag.

    If the Occupy Party is to survive, it will quickly get chapter heads so it can distance itself from idiots who talk to the media while carrying a "I am the 99%" poster.

    P.S. The Occupy group also seems to be having a lot of trouble grasping the legally established limits on Freedom of Speech and Assembly that are summarized in this easy to read document: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faq/frequently-asked-questions-assembly

  • Jimmy said:

    Casual anti-Semitism and calls for violence, for starters.

    Anti-semitism is "plaguing" OWS? Ha.

    If we care about violence with OWS, we should start with looking at the NYPD and its generous uses of a potentially lethal weapon.

    P.S. The Occupy group also seems to be having a lot of trouble grasping the legally established limits on Freedom of Speech and Assembly that are summarized in this easy to read document:

    There are alternate explanations. Such as: sometimes limits on free speech need to be ignored. Especially when situations become urgent and doing so doesn't threaten anyone's health or safety.

  • whynot wrote: P.S. The Occupy group also seems to be having a lot of trouble grasping the legally established limits on Freedom of Speech and Assembly that are summarized in this easy to read document:

    BG wrote: There are alternate explanations. Such as: sometimes limits on free speech need to be ignored. Especially when situations become urgent and doing so doesn't threaten anyone's health or safety.

    I agree, there are a lot of laws on the books that seem very petty. There are also obscure laws that a demonstrator can unwittingly break by just trying to express themselves.

    Freedom of assembly and speech is an area of the law that is constantly debated, and the laws place the police, mayor and public in tough roles. If they do not enforce such laws for groups that are merely harmless and clueless, they lose the ability to enforce these laws on groups that are angry and more destructive.

    If the country implements austerity measures over the next decade, I think we will get a lot more demonstrations. Some will be violent and idiotic, others will be thoughtful and policy based.

    We will need to do our best to enforce the laws evenly on all groups. An article is yesterday's NYT touched on a few of the issues, albeit only slightly

    I am pleased that Friday's attempt (guise?) to clean the park did not turn into something resembling the Battle in Seattle.

    ...as groups, both the police and protesters were pretty well behaved.

    These laws on assembly and speech are not going away anytime soon, and I would hate for us to be in a position where we are later accused of disparate treatment because we earlier chose to not enforce them on clueless kids.

    So far, the kids have just been arrested on pretty minor charges (disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, interference with the police, etc). If one's goal is merely civil disobedience, it is important that we give them the arrest they seek for a minor offense, that way they do not resort to committing a larger offense merely to get arrested and make their statement.

    For the most part, those arrested have been released within 24 hours. If it is their first arrest, this period allows them to decide whether the experience is one they wish to repeat.

    Hopefully those that make getting arrested a habit will realize that they face potentially increased consequences.

  • These laws on assembly and speech are not going away anytime soon, and I would hate for us to be in a position where we are later accused of disparate treatment because we earlier chose to not enforce them on clueless kids.

    Your concern trolling is noted.

    On a related note:


  • I wonder if apple will ever invent a phone that is so desired that people will sleep outside for 4 weeks to get it.

  • And if that happens, I wonder if the police will pepper spray any of the buyers in the face should they attempt to march across a street.

  • Maybe.

    But I bet even more havoc than that would result simply from an un-policed line.

    Apple could create its own version of the stampedes at Walmart.

    People love crap.

  • ...and (if it had feelings) crap would love people.

  • armchair_warrior said:


    When in doubt, let them eat cake.

    the cake is a lie.

    But...

    (mouse over pic)

  • jeffrey said:

    When in doubt, let them eat cake.

    the cake is a lie.

    But...

    (mouse over pic)

    pretty much.

  • A wealthy Manhattan real-estate agent buying Halloween goodies for underprivileged kids at an East Harlem mall was nearly killed by two 12-year-old punks who dropped a shopping cart on her from four stories above — then laughed about it later, police sources said yesterday.

    Marion Salmon Hedges was with her 13-year-old son, who watched in horror as his mom fell to the ground in the East Harlem mall on Sunday.

    “We heard a little boy just screaming,” recalled Susan Mahoney, who was at the mall with her doctor husband, Gaurav Patel, and 1-year-old son, Kieran.

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/tossed_cart_hit_philanthropist_A9LWJ98bXkyoqktLimfphK#ixzz1cVMKywmZ

    the 99% taking a piece of the 1% cake i suppose.

  • So much iron in my meal today! hmm one group needs more than the other, yet the other is bitching lol.

    Mr. Gaffney is hardly an unusual presence in the Occupy demonstrations across the country these days. From Los Angeles to Wall Street, from Denver to Boston, homeless men and women have joined the protesters in large numbers, or at least have settled in beside them for the night. While the economic deprivation they suffer might symbolize the grievance at the heart of this protest, they have come less for the cause than for what they almost invariably describe as an easier existence. There is food, as well as bathrooms, safety, company and lots of activity to allow them to pass away their days.

    “When the tents went up, everybody moved in,” Douglas Marra, a homeless person in Denver, said. “They knew they could get stuff for free.”

    But their presence is posing a mounting quandary for protesters and the authorities, and divisions have arisen among protesters across the country about how much, if at all, to embrace the interlopers. The rising number of homeless, many of them suffering from mental disorders, has made it easier for Occupy’s opponents to belittle the movement as vagrant and lawless and has raised the pressure on municipal authorities to crack down.

    In Atlanta on Saturday, demonstrators who had been thrown out of Woodruff Park by the police moved into upper floors of the Peachtree-Pine homeless shelter in a full-scale embrace of the cause of the 600 residents who live below them. It gave the demonstration more of a political focus, and not incidentally expanded its size.

    “The homeless bring numbers,” said Alex Smith Jr., 50, a former repairman who lives at the shelter and joined the protests. “They bring a voice.”

    But in places like Nashville, New York, Los Angeles and Oakland, Calif., protesters talk about feeling unsafe because of the presence of homeless people.

    “There are a lot of them here that have mental problems and that need help. They are in the wrong place,” said Jessica Anderson, 22, who is herself homeless, sitting with friends on a tarp at the Los Angeles site. “They have been creating more problems. There was one guy who showed up last night and he would not shut up: Saying all kinds of crazy stuff all night.”

    In Nashville, organizers described the homeless as more of a detriment to the movement than an asset. “This is keeping people away: It distracts a lot of energy away from the issues we’re fighting for when we’re just managing life in the camp,” said Bob Titley 56, one of the participants in Occupy Nashville. “A lot of women felt unsafe camping out at night. It discourages a lot of people from participating.”

    The influx of homeless has been continuing at a steady pace, even as the overall populations of some of the demonstrations have faded under the pressures of dropping temperatures, the passage of time and increasingly aggressive police tactics. Some organizers estimated that as many as 30 percent of the people camping out in some cities were chronically homeless, a figure that seems impossible to verify.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/us/dissenting-or-seeking-shelter-homeless-stake-a-claim-at-protests.html?_r=1&hp&gwh=521FA269F16C725EBF506EC CD02D5E2F

  • Another false alarm trying undermine the legitimacy and momentum of occupy Wall Street.

    First it was the drummers.

    Then the people having sex.

    Now it's homeless people.

    Sorry, OWS is tapping into actual widespread resentment at our very broken system.

    No amount of homeless people, or articles about homeless people, are going to change anything.

  • Are you saying the liberal media is trying to undermined the movement??????

  • Although the media loves to hate OWS, I've gotta side with AW on this one.

    Where is it written that a group of people can not have a good cause, AND be complete flakes?

    Where is it written that we have to support a movement that has unrealistic goals and means?

    Why do we have to feel sorry for "victims of the media" who have been repeatedly given the advice and means to protect themselves?

    ...we merely have the obligation to let them express themselves as allowed by law.

  • whynot_31 said:

    Although the media loves to hate OWS, I've gotta side with AW on this one.

    Where is it written that a group of people can not have a good cause, AND be complete flakes?

    Where is it written that we have to support a movement that has unrealistic goals and means?

    Why do we have to feel sorry for "victims of the media" who have been repeatedly given the advice and means to protect themselves?

    ...we merely have the obligation to let them express themselves as allowed by law.

    Wow, nothing you wrote has anything to do with any point I made.

    That's impressive.

  • I think "although the media loves to hate OWS" has everything to do with it has focused on drummers, sex and homeless people.

    I think a well run protest would realize such risks in advance, and be organized in a manner that it was not a "victim".

    OWS had choices and -based on its decisions- has received a combination of fair consequences and unfair treatment.

    Their learning curve and ability to change and adapt seems pretty flat, but that is not our fault.

  • there been many sexual assaults reported in many ows around the world. same goes for homeless problem. some homeless with mental problems are causing fights etc...

  • AW-

    I think this indicates that sleeping in parks with a group of people you don't know should not be done without precautions regardless of your cause, not that people who are opposed to 1% having 40% of the wealth are more likely to be sexual offenders or mentally ill.

    It is painful for me to admit that the Tea Party may be better at running safe, effective, law abiding protests that keep people who are destructive to the image of the movement (such as sexual offenders and homeless mentally ill people) at bay.

    ...it is a close call though. The Tea Party rallies have a tendency to attract all sorts of angry, ignorant people.

    Perhaps this is why (except in dire circumstances) most choose to be inside the building as opposed to throwing rocks at it from the outside.

  • Does this guy want to replace capitalism with communism where we know milk and honey and brotherhood will flow. plus only thing they did was to hurt the working class man in the area who works at the port.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57317465/occupy-protests-go-from-peace-to-chaos/

    One of the protest leaders, Boots Riley, touted the day as a success, saying "we put together an ideological principle that the mainstream media wouldn't talk about two months ago."

    His comments came before a group of demonstrators moved to break into the Travelers Aid building in order to, as some shouting protesters put it, "reclaim the building for the people."

    Riley, whose anti-capitalist views are well-documented, considered the port shut down particularly significant for organizers who targeted it in an effort to stop the "flow of capital." The port sends goods primarily to Asia, including wine as well as rice, fruits and nuts, and handles imported electronics, apparel and manufacturing equipment, mostly from Asia, as well as cars and parts from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. An accounting of the financial toll from the shutdown was not immediately available.

    The potential for the chaos that ultimately erupted was not something Riley wanted to even consider.

    "If they do that after all this ..." He paused, then added, "They're smarter than that."

    But the peace that abided throughout the day, did not last into the night.

    Occupy protesters voicing anger over a budget trim that forced the closure of a homeless aid program converged on the empty building where it had been housed. They blocked off city streets with dumpsters and other large trash bins, starting bonfires that leapt 15-feet in the air.

    City officials released a statement describing the spasm of unrest.

    "Oakland Police responded to a late night call that protesters had broken into and occupied a downtown building and set several simultaneous fires," the statement read. "The protesters began hurling rocks, explosives, bottles, and flaming objects at responding officers. Several private and municipal buildings sustained heavy vandalism. Dozens of protesters wielding shields were surrounded and arrested."

    Protesters reported running from several rounds of tear gas and bright flashes and deafening pops that some thought were caused by "flash bang" grenades. Fire crews arrived and suppressed the flames.

  • whynot_31 said:

    I think "although the media loves to hate OWS" has everything to do with it has focused on drummers, sex and homeless people.

    I think a well run protest would realize such risks in advance, and be organized in a manner that it was not a "victim".

    OWS had choices and -based on its decisions- has received a combination of fair consequences and unfair treatment.

    Their learning curve and ability to change and adapt seems pretty flat, but that is not our fault.

    Yup, their methods are far from perfect. It's a work in progress.

    But they're changing the debate, polls show increased support, and continuing with daily working groups to chart a way forward.

    What were we whining about again? I got lost.

  • I am mocking them for how long it is taking them to get their acts together, and support policies.

    ...I don't hear anyone whining.

  • armchair_warrior said:

    Does this guy want to replace capitalism with communism where we know milk and honey and brotherhood will flow. plus only thing they did was to hurt the working class man in the area who works at the port.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57317465/occupy-protests-go-from-peace-to-chaos/

    I thought you said change never happens until there's violence (even though the civil rights movement seems to prove this idea wrong)?

    Shouldn't you be commending them for finally adopting an effective tactic?

    Also, I encourage you to learn more about Boots Riley. He is a very smart, very interesting man. He's also a great rapper, but that's unrelated.

    That is, if you actually cared about economic debate in this country, but you don't. You just like posting one-off news stories that criticize American liberals, usually on an individual basis, as if Boots Riley proves a point about OWS Oakland.

    So, carry on.

  • whynot_31 said:

    I am mocking them for how long it is taking them to get their acts together, and support policies.

    ...I don't hear anyone whining.

    Just like I mock anyone who thinks they were making progress some other way besides massive public protest and anger.

    Oh well, the situation continues on.

  • I hope you find someone who expects progress from them or anyone else.

    Everyone I know is based in reality. Although we have a preference for demonstrations that make a little bit of an impact, we don't expect anything to actually change.

    We just watch the dreamers, and think to ourselves "yea, that would be nice, but it will never happen".

    Then we smile, and return to whatever task we have found that results in a paycheck.

  • I hope you find someone who expects progress from them or anyone else.

    I hope you find someone in the lower 50% who thinks their life was getting any better under current strategies.

    Everyone I know is based in reality. Although we have a preference for demonstrations that make a little bit of an impact, we don't expect anything to actually change.

    Everyone I know knows that status quo doesn't equal reality. We have a preference for new approaches to an entrenched system.

    We just watch the dreamers, and think to ourselves "yea, that would be nice, but it will never happen".

    We just watch the cynical people who sit at home and we think to ourselves, "yeah, privilege sure is nice."

    I'm glad I have my privilege. I'm more concerned for the millions who weren't born so lucky.

    Then we smile, and return to whatever task we have found that results in a paycheck.

    Then I shake my head, return to my job with a paycheck, and wonder how much longer our system can last in its current state.

  • I give the current system another 15 years.

    But I don't think it will be the unemployed, oppressed left that brings it down.

    Instead, I think it will be a tax rebellion by the employed right.

    ...the rich will have no trouble:

    They will hire plenty of people to defend them, and smile from a distant gated community, just as they always have.

  • If these jerks really want to change something occupied congress and the white house and see how far they'll go and also use some violence, instead of ports and wall street, where people actually get things done and make money.

    don't blame the guys on the wall street they just play the game, the people in dc on the other hand makes the rules go there to make a real difference. instead of going after weak and soft targets.

    they probably know they don't want real change, they just like the pretense of change, like the current president. change is something you can believe in with action not perceptual campaigns.

  • AW-

    I have a secret for you: Washington is not in charge. The corporations are not in charge. The wealthy are not in charge.

    No group is actually in charge.

    "Humanity is more difficult to control than nature, but easier to predict"

  • BG-

    Here's the most recent report from Demos on how hard the world is for people between 18 and 34 (OWS's prime demographic).

    http://www.demos.org/state-of-young-america

    Spoiler alert: It is much harder than in prior generations.

    Second Spoiler: No one listens to those most affected by the changing economy, because they are not perceived as being powerful.

  • they could go work on those farms lazy bastards.

  • AW-

    Things may have to get much worse before they accept a job that requires hard labor.

    However, there is no need to worry. Even if things get so bad that you, Boygabriel and I are all unemployed, I think any one of us would be chosen for a labor job over just about all of them.

    Life is hard.

  • http://hotchicksofoccupywallstreet.tumblr.com/

    this is something alot of guys can get behind in.

  • whynot_31 said:

    I give the current system another 15 years.

    But I don't think it will be the unemployed, oppressed left that brings it down.

    Instead, I think it will be a tax rebellion by the employed right.

    ...the rich will have no trouble:

    They will hire plenty of people to defend them, and smile from a distant gated community, just as they always have.

    Assuming that the status quo will go on indefinitely, with increasing hardship on the other 90% (realistically the other 70-80%) seems very short-sighted to me.

    OWS support across the country, and the polls showing increasing support for it, lead me to feel even more strongly about this belief.

    whynot_31 said:

    BG-

    Here's the most recent report from Demos on how hard the world is for people between 18 and 34 (OWS's prime demographic).

    http://www.demos.org/state-of-young-america

    Spoiler alert: It is much harder than in prior generations.

    Second Spoiler: No one listens to those most affected by the changing economy, because they are not perceived as being powerful.

    OWS may be disproportionately 18-34 year olds, but it would be a large mistake to say they represent a dramatic majority. Their disproportion becomes even less when it comes to people who generally support the movement, donate money, call their congresscritters, and otherwise lend support now and in the future, for better organized endeavors (which is what they're working on now. A sustainable agenda going forward, beyond park sitting.)

    Tell me whatever you want about how easy 20 year olds have it right now, it's largely missing the big picture of where we are, where we've been, and where we're going.

    Our current track is unsustainable. I don't care how many college graduates could get jobs at call centers in the exurbs or what have you.

    It's simply a matter of how long the top 10% or so (and corporations, who's agendas are frequently identical) can keep the other 90% distracted, divided, or silenced.

    Anger is growing, not subsiding.

  • armchair_warrior said:

    If these jerks really want to change something occupied congress and the white house and see how far they'll go and also use some violence, instead of ports and wall street, where people actually get things done and make money.

    don't blame the guys on the wall street they just play the game, the people in dc on the other hand makes the rules go there to make a real difference. instead of going after weak and soft targets.

    they probably know they don't want real change, they just like the pretense of change, like the current president. change is something you can believe in with action not perceptual campaigns.

    Wow, you really have no idea what OWS encompasses and is organizing for, do you?

  • wow, do I really care?

  • Apparently, you post about it all the time.

    Your fascination with something you don't care about and don't understand makes no sense.

  • I care, but I have been unable to determine whether OWS wants anything more than utopian goals like creating a better world and making people less greedy.

    I want to know their stand on various concrete proposals that address taxes and policies which are presently before the legislature. I also want to know the methods they will use to go about creating the changes they support so I can decide whether I want to join them.

    Despite my efforts, I have found it hard to ascertain the benefits of membership, or get in touch with their staff.

    I want to ask them questions about passed successes, and the methods they will use to face future challenges.

  • Right but you're only willing to "determine" things by clicking on web links.

    You could, you know, go down there and attend a meeting.

    They have strategy working groups almost every day.

    It's amazing what direct participation can achieve, especially in a new-born political movement that is still in embryonic stages.

    If you're going to wait until the planning stage is done, my advice is to just sit patiently and stop asking.

    Find something to occupy yourself until the actual organizing and strategy sessions are over.

    Or just ignore them and go back to the other movements or whatever efforts which you've alluded to before.

    But you can't have it both ways. "I care enough to criticize, but not enough to attend a meeting".

    Rings pretty hollow.

  • You could, you know, go down there and attend a meeting.

    You assume I have not?

  • And actually, given your skillset, professionally and otherwise, you would have a lot to offer them.

  • I have consistently offered in person and online.

    The Brooklyn version appears to have a much better leadership and goals, BTW.

  • whynot_31 said:

    You assume I have not?

    what was your experience during the general assembly?

    You've attended working groups?

    whynot_31 said:

    I have consistently offered in person and online.

    It takes a while to gain trust and authority. They can't just have someone walk off the street and start giving advice.

  • I found GA to be completely retarded, and filled with hopeless idealists who believed in consensus.

    I believe in getting things done more than absolute democracy, but there were a few people who seemed interested in joining more organized organizations, like WFP or HSC.

    I hope they adapt the methods of WFP and HSC and/or leave OWS. Their reps are far more patient than I, and paid to engage people who are clueless and/or angry in an effort to shape thier feelings into productive action.

    I have heard the WFP folks are similarly frustrated.

    Not all of the participants believe we have to go forward in an intelligent manner, and they are the bane of the left.

  • Wouldn't that be the working groups?

    As I understand it, the GA is just for public speaking, basically.

    But the working groups are organized by goals or specialty, and that is where the real planning and progress will happen.

  • Yes, the one in Brooklyn that I mention above shows more hope.

    It appears to consist of people who don't believe real social change comes about thru occupying a park, or fighting the police. (don't tell the public, but it is largely WFP members who are trying to recruit)

    We all seek the same goals. Life is all about affiliating with people who go about trying to achieve them in thought out ways.

  • You can't judge OWS Manhattan without including the working groups who are far more focused and presumably effective in the long term.

  • As I understand it, the GA is just for public speaking, basically

    From talking to someone who is down there every day, any policy that the OWS group wants to say is one of theirs or any theory espoused has to go through GA. If one of the working groups requires something I believe it has to go through GA to be approved before the next working group deals with it.

    For example, even if Comfort wants to spend $10,000 on really good sleeping bags, they have to bring that proposal to GA before they can go to Finance.

    From what I have discussed and gathered, it seems there has been a sort of learning curve among a number of people. Those who want the donated money handled well are now starting to see that having finance experts on the Finance team makes a certain amount of sense. Initially it seemed good to have people from all walks of life in different working groups. Every person's equal and all that. Now that people have been bandying about big numbers of money that may have been donated, there are some who wonder if the anarchists, freegans, and crusties should really be involved in the discussion.

    There are others who are beginning to become frustrated with consensus and that want to do as BG says and use GA for public speaking and let the working groups make some choices on their own. My feeling is that it is very hard for full ideas to come to fruition with the GA model. But the people down there who might have started off full of blind optimism are starting to clue into how a big group works and why we have the system of government that we do.

    From my very limited perspective, it appears that even those who are having realizations on this matter are not simply giving up. Even those who are frustrated with GA are still down there. I will be very interested to see how it all evolves, and not from a sarcastic standpoint.

  • Thanks Tate, that is my impression as well.

    Basically, OWS Manhattan is learning why consensus is not used: It does not work. They are learning that a representative democracy is inherently exclusionary and status based, but that it can actually get something done.

    I see the OWS groups throughout the country as being completely unaffiliated with each other, and suspect that they will feel the need to distance themselves from the reputations of other cities as their own identities develop. Some will even embrace articulate leaders :)

    ...I have seen nothing from any of the Manhattan working groups that leads me to believe that they are able to focus, or make intelligent statements.

    Suffice it to say, when they are ready for me, I will likely be ready for them. Until then, I'll hang out with folks and organizations who are already at a different stage in their development.

    I feel no desire to spend time with sophomoric sophomores, but would welcome them if they grew up and joined us. Folks like me will wait with open arms.

  • http://gawker.com/5861169/

    Does anyone have any bets on how long this lasts what what the odds are of it going until Monday morning?

    Besides my desire to go into work, is anyone really evil enough to deserve a 24 hour drum circle outside their home?

    I also imagine the Iraqi embassy wouldn't be too jazzed to have that across the street from them.

  • A NYC union recently had a demonstration in which they were noisy outside someone's house for a few days (sorry, I forget which union or which house), so a precedence has been set.

    I would like everyone to be treated similarly, so I hope OWS gets similar privileges.

    If nothing else, such demonstrations may help clarify what is allowed in public spaces.

    I'd really hate for a neo-Nazi group to successfully sue NYC because their rights to demonstrate were violated, because they were only able to beat drums for 8 hours outside of a NYC mayors house, because OWS got to do it for a week.

  • Technically 79th street seems to be blocked off to pedestrians altogether, but they are gathered (penned-in) near the park on 5th.

  • I suspect the area is being referred to as a free speech zone.

    I hope if a group of people ever gets pissed at me, the police put them in an area that will not disturb me and my neighbors. I would hate for only powerful people to have this privilege.

    Of course, if I was a protester, I would want to be right in the face of my opponent and would probably not care about disturbing his/her neighbors if I viewed them as also being XYZ.

    In theory XYZ could be some social class. Or, some religion. Race? Political affiliation? Veteran status? Sexual orientation......etc. Fun stuff, isn't it?

This discussion has been closed.