Roger That Community Garden May Be Developed — Brooklynian
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Roger That Community Garden May Be Developed

klevenickklevenick
edited May 2015 in Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
The Roger That Community Garden is holding a volunteer day/rally this Sunday, January 19 in order to raise awareness of the trouble suddenly facing the garden. In the past weeks, the lot was sold to a local realty company with notice that the garden could be removed as early as next week. We've been in contact with company to talk over options for either placing an offer on the land or negotiating more time to clear the garden out properly, and have started a fundraiser to help.Many of the Roger That volunteers are former members of the Crow Hill community garden on Franklin, and we've really poured our heart and soul into this space over the past two years. We've been trying to keep on top of real estate developments with the lot, but the sale of the lot happened largely without notice, so we're left trying to organize as quickly as possible to save the space.If you're around on Sunday, please stop by from 11:00AM - 4:00PM and see how you can help. We also have a fundraiser page available at https://fundly.com/save-roger-that-community-garden. A full copy of the press release circulating to various news organizations is below:
Brooklyn, NY – January 17, 2014 – Roger That Garden Project, an iconic half-acre community garden in Crown Heights home to over 100 participants—including dozens of neighborhood children and students from local public schools—and thousands of plants, is in imminent danger of destruction as a result of a recent property sale. TYC Real Estate has purchased NYC Tax Lot 1, Block 1233, which includes the Garden and total elimination of the Garden is scheduled to be complete by next week. To save the years of dedicated work and flourishing plant community, Garden organizers must buy back the land from the purchaser or else succeed in securing additional time and a new location to safely move plants and equipment. Roger That Garden Project is urgently seeking to raise funds to support a purchase and new location to move plants temporarily or permanently. A volunteer day will be held on Sunday, January 19, from 11:00 to 4:00 to rally support for extending the life of the Garden and answer questions from press, elected officials, and community members.Roger That Garden Project, on the corner of Rogers Avenue and Park Place, opened in 2011 with three goals in mind: to cultivate food, nature, and community. The Garden is a critical neighborhood resource that produces healthy food, gives children a place to go after school, clears trash, keeps rodents away, stewards newly planted trees, and helps once-anonymous individuals become engaged community members making positive change. The Garden grew out of an effort led by the Crown Heights Youth Collective to tear down the dilapidated building formerly on the site and create a community garden to encourage neighbors to garden together in an environment affected by poverty, obesity, and food deserts. A vibrant mural to commemorate the removal of the building by the City and the replacement of urban decay with new growth and community effort was completed in 2007, and remains a visible symbol of community togetherness and partnership.Today, Roger That Garden Project is a volunteer-run, communally cared-for native plant and edible garden that has never turned away anyone who wants to interact with nature, be outdoors, and do something positive for their block. The Garden has worked with Brooklyn Botanic Garden, the NYC Department of Sanitation, the NYC Parks Department, Citizen’s Committee for NYC, KickStarter.com, the GreenBelt Native Plant Center, Build It Green NYC, the Crown Heights CSA, New York Cares, GrowNYC, former gardeners from the High Line, and the Crown Heights Youth Collective to procure resources and build a sustainable, beautiful neighborhood asset.Roger That Garden project is currently in discussions with the developer about the viability of extending the Garden’s life by re-purchasing the land or securing several more months to safely move the plants to a new location during the warm season. To find out more, volunteer time, or suggest a new location, please contact Emily Dinan. To donate to the purchase fund, please visit fundly.com/save-roger-that-community-garden.
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Comments

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2014
    For those unaware with the garden on Franklin that is referenced above, here is its story: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/new-garden-on-franklin-between-sterling-park/page/7/

    Summary: Gardeners cleared an unused lot, and then grew plants and vegetables. The plot was then put up for sale by its owners, and the gardeners were told to vacate.The gardeners vacated, but the land has yet to have anything built on it....
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited April 2014
    Here are photos of the garden on Rogers, known as "Roger That" 

    115 Rogers Avenueaka 749 Park Place
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Press:http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140121/crown-heights/volunteers-fight-save-crown-heights-community-garden
  • klevenickklevenick
    We got some good press from InterOccupy, too!Also, we've got a petition up if anyone is interested in signing:www.change.org/petitions/bill-deblasio-save-the-roger-that-garden-project-encourage-tyc-realty-to-make-affordable-property-transfer-to-local-land-trustWe had a fairly successful volunteer day, lots of people out getting signatures, a representative from the land trust stopped by, and some other locals popping in to see what's going on. Hopefully we'll get enough interest going to further delay any hasty decisions regarding the plot until we see if the land trust has a shot at buying the land.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    The advocates for this garden continue to fight:

    http://www.change.org/petitions/leticia-james-save-the-roger-that-garden-project-encourage-tyc-realty-to-make-affordable-property-transfer-to-local-land-trust?share_id=ZWCRxSHqpK&utm_campaign=twitter_link_action_box&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=share_petition

    However, it is not clear whether the land trust has the ability to pay a competitive price for the property.

    ...and the new owners do not seem to want to engage in a process in which they restrict the number of bidders they are allowed to market to ONE.

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Fundraiser April 12th:

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited April 2014
    I have been told that all money raised tonight goes directly to the Brooklyn Queens Land Trust.

    In the event this garden is unable to be saved, the money will be used to save another garden.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Press: http://brokelyn.com/party-help-save-crown-heights-roger-community-garden-saturday/
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited April 2014
    image

    Upside down garden party!

    image
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    image
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Formal photos:

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Press: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20140616/REAL_ESTATE/306159991/plans-to-build-in-garden-sow-fear

    It does not sound as if one of the various land trusts was able to swoop in and save the day.

  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    Nostrand Ave could use a community garden...
  • homeownerhomeowner
    Why? This garden is one block over and there is another garden on Bedford and St. Marks and another on Bergen just off Nostrand.
  • klevenickklevenick
    That's a weird article. We haven't raised $15,000 yet, we're still in the process. That was just the offer we made to TYC, at which point they ceased returning our phone calls.

    We just heard back from them this week, after about two months of calling. They didn't like our offer, didn't want to call us back, and now we're still working with BQLT to see what our options are. At this point, it's largely about talking to local officials. TYC has agreed to contact us officially through their lawyer in order to see what can be done moving forward, but that won't happen for another month or so. In the meantime, we're moving ahead as usual. Nothing's over yet!
  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    It would just be nice to have some open green space.
  • homeownerhomeowner
    Sorry, wasn't trying to be snippy, it just is a strange thought as someone who grew up here in the city. I tend to think of the parks and BBG as the goto spots for greenery.
  • klevenickklevenick
    From an involved perspective, both as part of the Franklin Ave garden and this one, it's also a great community rally point. I've bet a bunch of people from the neighborhood that I probably would not have met otherwise (even people in this thread!). Plus, the Roger That setup has been a good experiment in public plots. Franklin Ave's garden was private plots, and this has led to a much more communal experience (in my opinion) but also some unique challenges. So outside of just having more green space (always a plus), I see each garden a new way to bring people together and try things in a context they might not get elsewhere. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Sorry, wasn't trying to be snippy, it just is a strange thought as someone who grew up here in the city. I tend to think of the parks and BBG as the goto spots for greenery.
    The community gardens are more about "collective" growing and events than the parks.

    Like the food coop, they are too collective for my preferences.

    But, a lot of people seem to get a lot out of them, and they sure beat what USED TO BE the alternative: A trash strewn vacant lot.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited June 2014
    Today, a construction fence is being erected on the site.

    Once the fence is complete, the site's new owners may be able to charge the gardners with trespassing if they enter.

    The end has either arrived, or is very near.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited June 2014
    imagePress: http://brokelyn.com/roger-community-garden-facing-imminent-closure/
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Rachel writes a piece:

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140627/crown-heights/crown-heights-community-garden-boarded-up-as-members-protest
  • newguy88newguy88
    I saw them putting up the fence and when I saw the work permit my stomach sank a little. They've put so much work into lately that it's sad for it go away. It was a much welcome bit of greenery. But you know condos yay! 
  • BryceTCBryceTC
    This kinda sucks. There's another plot of land right around the corner on Park Place between Rogers and Nostrand that's begging to be used. It got cleaned up quite a while ago too. Some wild bushes are starting to pop up again so now would be the best time to take advantage of the land before it turns into a dump again.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Yes, they should find another plot to the east. I expect the lot to be surrounded in plywood soon.

    image
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    The organizers publish what may be their last press release:

    http://rogerthatgarden.org/Roger-That-Garden-press-release-20140711.pdf
  • DawndewDawndew
    Noble ideals in a land of private properties.  Sadly, what they could have done from the beginning is seek legal advice to secure land before making it so desirable.
  • newguy88newguy88
    The site is now completely covered by a plywood fence.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Hopefully construction begins soon.

    ...If I were a gardener, I think it would be worse to not be able to access my garden because it "someday" was going to be built on, than if they just built on it.
  • klevenickklevenick
    We are still waiting to hear from TYC's lawyers regarding the use of the land. The putting up of the fence was done by TYC after telling us they would meet with us first, and then claiming that they had already talked to us about it. It's a frustrating situation to say the least. We are meeting to discuss the future of the garden and the possibility of moving out while saving as many of the plants as possible. The fence is up, but no building can happen until TYC pays off the massive back taxes owed on the land.

    We actually have been in talks for legal advice to secure the land since we moved in, but it's not something we had experience with and by the time the garden grew to a point where we could properly organize to move forward with it, this happened. Seriously, we started getting things in place back in the fall of 2013, and the actual sale happened in November.

    We still have full access to the garden as well, so that's not the concern, nor are we worried that it'll be built on someday. Right now we are exploring tracks to both preserve the garden if possible, and if not, to find the proper way to move it. We have all invested a lot of money and time into the current setup, so we are trying everything we can to delay any destruction of the property until then.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Most of my thoughts stem from the garden that used to be on Franklin, where the gardeners were told to leave but then nothing (yet) has been built.

    When a building is built, at least someone gets to live there.
  • klevenickklevenick
    The problem that we're seeing is that TYC doesn't seem like they are the ones going to build on the land, but probably sell to someone else. Because of the situation with the back taxes, it doesn't look like movement on the property could even begin for several months. That just leaves them in a position to tear down what is there and leave a mess sitting around. We'd like to try to find some way to keep the garden in there as long as possible and leave, if that is what it comes down to, responsibly. We want to avoid what happened on Franklin and try for a better option: letting something good come out of the land until they are finally ready to move on it.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    They may believe the land is most valuable to a new buyer without the garden present.

    So, you might be able to stay on it for the longest possible time by creating an agreement which states you will leave Nov 1, or forfeit a deposit you have given them.

    You'd want to specify that you are aware said document could not be construed as a lease, and involve a lawyer who has drawn up a similar agreement.
  • klevenickklevenick
    We have been working with 596 Acres to figure out the best legal way to remain on the land, and BQLT has been offering some opinions as well. Unfortunately, our biggest hurdle is just trying to get TYC to communicate with us. They've largely ignored any attempts at contact over the past three months, but at least came to the garden while it was being walled up and agreed on paper to a meeting where we can cover some of these options.
  • DawndewDawndew
    Where ownership is not your goal we have the gardens at Brower Park where volunteers and contributions are welcomed and loved by all.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    The members of the garden have recently decorated the construction fence:


    10563003_10100733603644474_7638406753579772531_n
  • homeownerhomeowner
    Glad you captured an image of that because I walked by today and all of the posters had been ripped down. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    The photo was actually taken by a garden member, right after it was finished.
  • newguy88newguy88
    I suspect the landlord didn't approve of them using his fence to plead for their survival. He also probably didn't smile upon them ripping part of it down.
  • homeownerhomeowner
    I chuckled at the irony of the untended plants starting to creep over the fence at the corner of the property. Its as if they are waging their own attempt to get out of dodge before the inevitable construction begins.

    Its a bit amusing to watch those that have benifited from all of the change in the neighborhood, starting to protest all of the change in the neighborhood once it affects them personally.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    Yes.

    I also found it somewhat naive that one of the landtrusts would use their limited money at this location.

    The landtrusts wisely spend their money where opportunities to "build community" are lacking the most, and where they can secure several plots for the price of this one.

    Answer: East Brooklyn.

    There, the residents are disproportionately poor and disabled and don't have the ability to engage in safe, productive recreation. There, local gardens provide a much more needed resource.

    Here, they serve a far more "able" clientele.

    As a result, I attended the April 12th fundraiser (see grainy photos above) not because I thought it would save the Roger That Garden, but because it would be a nice little transfer of wealth from "here" to "there".
  • klevenickklevenick
    It's a bummer to see negative assumptions about who we are and the stuff we do in the neighborhood. Many members have been in the neighborhood for more than a decade, and while others like myself have only been here for 5 or so years, we are very active in the local community. Assuming we only care about stuff going on when it happens to us personally is kind of weird and a downer? Feel free to come by the garden anytime we are working there to talk to us about it and find out real information about what's going on and all the things we're involved in. 

    The flyers came down in the rain, they weren't torn down by anyone. 

    Little to no money was actually going to be used by the BQLT for our garden, it was all going to be raised by us and donated to the BQLT for the purpose of supporting/securing the garden (and if purchase of the land became impossible, the money would be donated to BQLT for whatever they saw fit). The person from BQLT doing a majority of the organization with us is the former President, now retired from the board, as well. 

    If anyone is interested in keeping up with developments on the garden, I highly recommend using www.rogerthatgarden.org as a resource and way to stay in touch. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    I don't think it is really important how long garden members have been in the community, or how active they are with other things/causes. Whether such assumptions are made about your members is irrelevant.

    This is strictly about money: This plot of land will be used by its present owners in the manner that creates the most of it.

    If a land trust was able to buy it, they could (and would) pursue goals other than money.

    ...but their ROI calculations don't seem to justify it, and the present owners seem to know that any offer a land trust makes would be far below the land's value.

  • DawndewDawndew
    edited August 2014
    737 Park place could use some TLC  plantings and perhaps is available to purchase at a much lower price being a less than a "corner plot"
    http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/Property/151604/737-Park-Pl-Brooklyn-NY-11216/
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    Today's NY Post states that the developer will sell the Roger That site to the gardeners for $1M.

    If they don't come up with the $, they need to be gone by Sept.


    115 Rogers
    749 Park Place
  • newguy88newguy88
    Kickstarter time?
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Packing time.
  • eastbloceastbloc
    Someone should have a chat with that school on Rogers that seems to own the rubble, weed, and junk car-strewn property facing Sterling.

    It doesn't seem to be doing anything useful with it, and it sure would be an improvement as a CG.
  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    I second that suggestion, eastbloc. A community garden would be so nice in that location! Maybe the rusted out cards can be turned into a giant plant container or something.

    BTW -- does anyone know the history of the vacant lot next to the Carmel Christian School? It looks like there was a fire, but does school still happen in the adjacent building?
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    That lot is nice because it has an existing fence.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    "Now he has doubled his asking price, all for a lot that the gardener say is worth about $80,000."
    http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2014/08/developer-demands-1-million-for-crown-heights-community-garden/

    Um, I can't think of a corner lot anywhere in CH that is worth only $80k.


  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    This is the classic argument between value and cost. It may have only cost $8 in materials to create that afghan blanket, but I will price it at $50 because that is what people will pay for it!
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Same story in Ditmas Park:

    http://ditmasparkcorner.com/blog/news/neighbors-fight-for-an-imperiled-garden-they-transformed-from-an-abandoned-lot-into-an-oasis-of-green

    Gardeners put lots of work into a vacant plot, and then feel they should be able to stay because they equate work and possession with ownership.
  • mugofmead111mugofmead111
    This is the classic argument between value and cost. It may have only cost $8 in materials to create that afghan blanket, but I will price it at $50 because that is what people will pay for it!
    One puts in hours of labor in transforming $8 worth of yarn into that afghan blanket.  (Actually depending on how big the blanket is, the raw materials probably would cost more! )The $50 asking cost may include some of that labor. There was some labor involved in Mr. Billings's tracking down the heir to the previous owner of the lot. 





  • whynot_31whynot_31
    When looked at on an hourly basis, that labor might not have even been that really well paid.

    ...one has to include all of the times he researched a property, tracked down its owners, and wasn't able to buy it in order to come up with mean hourly earnings.

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Returning to Roger That, I do love how a politician is taking credit for what is a standard procedure.

    ...DOB already doesn't issue new permits when they have unpaid taxes on them.

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140925/crown-heights/community-garden-fighting-orders-leave-plan-paint-new-mural
  • DawndewDawndew
    so really, Mr Billings paid $214,000 for the lot not zero as someone is quoted saying in article, since he inherits the tax lien with the title. Of course he may be able to renegotiate that lien with the city.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    The city is in a strong position re: developers wanting permits, so I suspect they will demand the full amount owed.

    Detroit is in a different situation; that city begs for people to build.
  • homeownerhomeowner
    Looks like the Roger That crew was out again this weekend. They painted a mural on what remains of the construction wall with their website and a request to save the garden. I am impressed with their stick-to-it-ness.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    While they clearly have grown attached to the plot of land, they seem to be denying the inevitable.

    I am not sure I would use the word "impressed".

    Here is a photo of the mural from the air, as it appears on their Facebook feed:




    image
  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    @mugofmead, I probably should have refined my argument. The value/cost difference comes into play when I use $8 of yarn and $30 of worth of my time/labor/talent to create an afghan rug, and then I charge $50 for the rug at a street fair in Crown Heights and $200 for the same rug at a street fair in Park Slope.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited September 2014
    Yes, the economic value of something is determined by what the highest bidder will pay for it.

    The gardeners don't have much $, and would like the present owners to accept payment that includes goodwill.

    http://www.valuadder.com/glossary/business-goodwill.html

    At this point, it is clear that the gardeners' valuation of the gardeners' goodwill is much higher than the owners' valuation of same.


  • DawndewDawndew
    It is easier for them emotionally to keep this campaign up than unlearn it and try another vacant lot to occupy.  It is sad because there is another lot half a block away towards Bedford that would benifit the community too, if that is still the goal too.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    One of 4 community gardens that are in danger of disappearing
    http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/23/four_nyc_community_gardens_fighting_for_their_lives.php#more
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited February 2015
    Above, we had a brief discussion abot how much this lot is worth, and the developers request for $1M.

    In light of the nearby corner lot on Rogers at Prospect Place selling for $1.2M, the developers request for $1M seems quite reasonable.
    http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2015/02/five-story-building-planned-for-rogers-avenue-in-crown-heights/

    Needless to say, the developers are likely unwilling to take $1M anymore. ...its value has continued to increase.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    "An application was filed today for a four-story residential building
    on the property at 115 Rogers Avenue, also known as 749 Park Place.

    The new building would hold six apartments divided across 3,990
    square feet of residential space, as well as 1,140 square feet of
    ground floor commercial retail. That works out to an average apartment
    of only 665 square feet—almost certainly rentals, and about as small as
    the zoning code allows for new buildings. 

    There will be one apartment on the first floor, and two each on the
    second, third and fourth floors (adding up to seven apartments, not
    six)."

    http://newyorkyimby.com/2015/04/four-story-building-headed-to-crown-heights-community-garden-at-115-rogers-avenue.html
  • newguy88newguy88
    edited April 2015
    I'm going to miss Roger That. It was a welcome bit of green space in a neighborhood rapidly becoming generic condos and Mexican takeout places.

    I must get a photo of that mural before it gets destroyed. I really wish we could save that since it's such a fixture of the block.

    Any idea on the time frame for construction?
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited May 2015
    The permits were just applied for, and it will take the DOB a while to approve them.

    Then, they need to dig a hole, create a foundation, build the structure, and install open concept IKEA kitchens.

    So, let's estimate occupancy in the Fall of 2016.

    The first floor will have a commercial space, as well as a backyard. So, we might end up with a Mexican restaurant with margarita garden going in there.
  • homeownerhomeowner
    The garden had a sign up a couple of weeks ago offering keys to any new gardeners that wanted in, and a copy of a cease and desist letter their attorney sent to the owners last week posted to the front gate. Looks like they are determined to go down swinging, or at least to drag the owners into L&T court a couple of times before all this is through. 

    Having said that, I don't think that Fall of 2016 is unreasonable. Wouldn't at all surprise me if the owners executed some sort of nighttime raid to remove everything and start on construction. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited May 2015
    The gardeners are giving talks about the strategies they tried and are trying. 

    https://www.facebook.com/events/290894687701446/

    This event is on May 12 and May 13th.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited May 2015
    It seems they may be realizing that this battle is lost.  Here's the filing:

    http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=1&passjobnumber=321120666&passdocnumber=01
  • ehgeeehgee
    There's always starting a socialist revolution in order to bring about land reform.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited May 2015
    Or, eminent domain:

    "Roger That can be saved if the City invokes eminent domain and buys the property to preserve it as a Parks Department garden. Eminent domain has been used to create New York’s parks and open spaces dating at least back to 1807. Prospect Park, Central Park, the Ocean Parkway Greenway and Astor place are just a few of the over 350 condemnations for the creation or preservation of parks and open spaces that have been recorded in New York’s county courts. "

    http://596acres.org/en/news/2015/04/13/for-immediate-release-new-yorks-ride-bikes-to-connect-gardens-under-threat/


  • newguy88newguy88
    edited June 2015
    http://gothamist.com/2015/06/11/crown_heights_community_garden.php

    Roger That is now trying to claim the property was sold for $10 and this is illegal. Unless I'm missing something the owner of a property can sell it for whatever they see fit and doesn't have to explain why to third parties. 

    They might be right that the eviction process was improper. I could be wrong but I thought only a peace officer with a court order could lock you out of your space. I don't believe that a landlord's employees can come and throw a lock on your gate. 

    I sympathize with Roger That but I don't think sticking legal notices on the fence counts as serving them to the landlord. The article also makes it seem like they never were entirely legally on the lot from the get go. Nevertheless, it is very sad to see much needed green space go to make room for another generic building. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited June 2015
    a. The city has some oversight in how much a property is sold for, so that the seller and buyer do not understate the price in order to avoid taxes. However, it does not set a price. Instead, it has a loose "fair value" standard, and if the buyer passes it, the city will leave them alone. Note, the buyers may have paid off back taxes, fines and leins on the property. These may be enough to convince the city that the price was not set in a manner that jipped them any taxes. [Jipped is not a legal term :) ]

    b. There is a procedure for evicting tenants (even squatters..) on non-residential properties. If the owners of the property can show that they followed said procedure, they will "win" the assistance of gov in getting the gardeners off the property.

    ...and be able to build whatever is allowed by the DOB.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    edited June 2015
    Hmmm.  My mother has dementia and would sign away her inheritance for a ham sandwich if the right person asked her.  I wonder how the heirs of the plumber who sold a million dollar lot for $10 are feeling right now.  Perhaps someone should ask them.

  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    Just to give some context, 865 Sterling Place between Nostrand and NY, a vacant shell that had a fire, just sold for $1.3 million.  To suggest that a vacant lot should sell for $10 plus some back taxes and fines is kind of silly.

  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited June 2015
    I don't see where I proposed what it should have sold for.

    BTW, if your mother is still legally able to sign contracts I would not make her vulnerabilities well known.
  • mugofmead111mugofmead111
    Hmmm.  My mother has dementia and would sign away her inheritance for a ham sandwich if the right person asked her.  I wonder how the heirs of the plumber who sold a million dollar lot for $10 are feeling right now.  Perhaps someone should ask them.

    Go get a POA for your mom if there isn't already one! If she's too far gone, petition for guardianship.

  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    edited June 2015
    I'm sorry I brought my mother into this.  Please forgive me.
    She's just typical of many older folks who are vulnerable to predatory developers, such as perhaps the one who sold his lot on Rogers and Park Place for $10.
    I think you all get this but are just choosing to be obtuse.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited June 2015
    You are free to conclude that the person who sold this lot was taken advantage of, and that the buyer was a scoundrel.

    Hundreds of years later, some people have concluded Peter Minuit was a scoundrel. Minuit is credited with purchasing the island of Manhattan from the Native Americans in exchange for traded goods valued at 60 guilders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Minuit

    The person who purchased Brooklyn, which included this garden, was seemingly less successful.
  • crownheightstercrownheightster
    Holy jesus. I can't believe that 865 Sterling finally, finally sold. And for $1.3 million! it has had a hole in the roof for years! Total gut reno. 
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    I suspect that is because of its storied history:

    "When cops entered one location, at 865 Sterling Place, an officer fell through a makeshift trapdoor set up by the dealers and broke her arm."

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/crown-heights-bit-back-article-1.220274

    I wonder if the person who owned the garden lot would have gotten a better price if it came with similar stories.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    Representatives from Roger That Garden are to appear in landlord tenant court on July 7th.

    If the owner of the lot is successful at this hearing, the gardeners will be evicted and construction can begin.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    Nobody likes to evict gardeners, even curmudgeonly old judges.  After all,  the Supreme Court just upheld Obamacare and gay marriage..  Hell if that happened, anything can.

    If you care to help out the garden, here's some news that might interest you.

    From:
    Emily-Bell
    Dinan <ebdinan@gmail.com>

    Subject:
    Roger
    That Floods the Court 07/07/15 @ 10:00 am - PLEASE READ, SHARE, AND COME
    OUT!

    Date:
    July 2,
    2015 12:44:50 PM EDT



    Hello Gardeners,
    Partners, Friends and Neighbors, 


    The time has come for Roger That
    Garden to appear in eviction court and we need your help! We will be in Landlord-Tenant Court this
    Tuesday, 07/07 at 10:00 am     and need to     bring everyone. Roger
    That Garden wants to ensure that the housing court judge our group ends up in
    front of understands that this issue is vital to our community. This is not only
    Crown Heights. This issue effects every rapidly gentrifying neighborhood
    fighting questionable real estate ventures. This effects the security and
    institutional value of community gardens City-wide. This effects the voice of
    community driven change. COME. SHARE. SPEAK UP FOR OPEN SPACE, VOLUNTEERISM,
    AND HEALTHY COMMUNITIES! 



    Please share the Facebook
    event and see you soon: https://www.facebook.com/events/511318829026166/

    WHERE: 141 Livingston Street
    (at Smith), Room 603. Brooklyn, NY 11201 

    Let us know if you have
    questions! We will provide Roger That Garden t-shirts for folks to wear. More
    background info on our long fight can be found here.

    FLOOD THE COURT AND SEE YOU
    SOON!



    Cheers, 








    Emily-Bell
    Dinan



     
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    Judges don't get to do what they like. They have to follow the law.

    To gain legal possession of the property, all the developers need to do is prove that:

    a. They obtained the deed legally,

    b. There is no existing legal agreement between the gardeners and the property owners for use of the land,

    c. Prior attempts to have the gardeners leave have failed, and thus the court's assistance is required.

    ...this isn't about proving whether a garden is good for a neighborhood.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    God forbid a garden is good for the community.  Central Park and Prospect Park seemed to have worked out OK.  Just narrowly interpreting the law isn't how folks get elected as judges.  Eventually they're supposed to serve the greater good of the community.
  • newguy88newguy88
    edited July 2015
    God forbid a garden is good for the community.  Central Park and Prospect Park seemed to have worked out OK.  Just narrowly interpreting the law isn't how folks get elected as judges.  Eventually they're supposed to serve the greater good of the community.
    But within the confines of the law. They can't rewrite law even if they were to it would be shot down on appeal.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    Capt-
    Have fun on Tuesday. Let us know if you can get the judge to overturn property rights.

    Property rights and consent seem to be two things consistently disliked by people who want something that isn't theirs.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    Ah, all of these legal experts.  Sounds like somebody should be making big bucks in the courtroom.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    As the saying goes, "the lawyers are certain to win".

    Let me know if they have any extra t-shirts on Tuesday.

    ...If the gardeners aren't successful in proving a violation of law, I'm sure one of the real estate agents would enjoy wearing one under their suit when they show the finished units to tenants.

    Don't throw the extra tshirts out!
  • bobmarvinbobmarvin
    There's a similar situation regarding the Maple Street Garden, on Maple III in PLG. However, there's one MAJOR difference, since the "property rights" of the supposed owners are very much in question. They're a pair of convicted criminals with a history of stealing real estate by forging deeds.

    The gardeners are attempting to raise money to, among other things, hire a private investigator to look into the "owners" rights to the property. It would be interesting to see the "owners" end up in prison yet again.

  • bobmarvinbobmarvin
    More about the Maple Street Garden on DNA Info:


  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    Ms Whynot and I donate to the various Land Trusts that create gardens by buying land.

    We also pay taxes, some of which is used by the Parks Dept to create new open space.

    Have the (prior) owners of the Maple Street Garden lot filed a suit/complaint that their property deed has been forged?

    They would seem to be the party most affected by the theft, not the gardeners. Then, a publicly funded DA could investigate the merits of their complaint, as opposed to a crowd funded private investigator.
  • bobmarvinbobmarvin
    It's quite possible that the heir to this properly is unaware of the theft. Might that not be what the criminals count on? In that event the gardeners would be performing a real public service.
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    Property owners must pay taxes to keep the city at bay, so I believe the "best" (?) deed thieves scour the list of delinquent property owners to find a vulnerable property.

    More legitimate "Cash for Land" businesses do the same thing.

    Has the Maple St property ever been on said list?
  • bobmarvinbobmarvin
    Is there such a comprehensive list? If so, is it on line? In the absence of such a list one would have to look up individual properties on the Dept. of Finance website.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    edited July 2015
    Roger That Garden had another day in court today.  In commercial court to be exact.  The judge is used to settling cases with money, ie, how much will you pay the tenant to leave his bodega.  This case has the judge stumped, as the gardeners don't want money, they want vegetables.
    Next day in court is July 28th.  We had about 16 hearty shirt wearing souls today.
    For me the ultimate question is: do we need another three housing units in Crown Heights or would we rather have a garden for the community.
    Right now, the City is raking in tons of new real estate taxes thanks to the expansion of the exclusionary zone for 421a tax abatement.  All those new condos and rentals you see going in on Sterling Place, St. Marks Place, Bedford and Lincoln, Dean and Franlin etc.  will all be paying lots of real estate taxes.
    What would we as fellow tax payers and community residents like the City to do with all of this new revenue?
    For maybe $500,000 we the people using our special eminent domain tool could buy Roger That Garden and save it forever from being yet another expensive and dreary residential building.  
    What say yee?  Any Olmstead and Vaux thinkers out there?
  • whynot_31whynot_31
    edited July 2015
    While the city presently has a surplus, I don't think the judge has the power to cut a check to a landlord for over $1m.   Likewise, I don't think the judge is empowered to use eminent domain.

    http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/45629/it-is-a-really-good-time-to-be-the-mayor-of-nyc/p1

    We can only hope that the residents who move the to-be-constructed units don't view them "expensive" or "dreary".     Both terms are subjective, after all.
  • capt. planetcapt. planet
    My question is: what is the highest and best use of the few remaining bits of available land left in our increasingly concrete jungle of a city.  I recall that a previous mayor, one known for his love of development, made a goal to provide every New Yorker access to green space.
    Surely this current development frenzy where every scrap of land is fought over like it was manna from heaven for starving developers will pass and our children will see this intense pile of concrete and steel and wonder why nobody thought to leave a little open space.
    So, indeed, why not?
This discussion has been closed.