NYC begins a Municipal ID program
  • In NYC, lots of people are denied the ability to open a bank account or are held by police until their identity can be verified, because they lack an identification card.

    Immigrants, homeless people, and people recently released from jail or prison are among those most at risk.

    As you may have heard, NYC is going to attempt to save tax dollars and improve the well being of these folks by issuing municipal ID cards.

    In this thread, you can not only jabber about the program, but also apply for a really challenging senior position within it!

    http://www.nynp.biz/index.php/new-jobs/21515-director-of-program-integrity-for-the-municipal-id-project-new-york-city-human-resources-administration-hra
  • And individuals who are in the US illegally will also benefit from this ID program.  Worst. Idea. Ever.
  • Yes, undocumented/illegal immigrants are a group that will be targeted to receive the IDs.

    The goal is cost saving.

    Some estimates state that up to 20% of NYC residents, about 1.8m people, are illegal.

    The vast majority of legal immigrants have ID, and won't benefit.
  • Wow, I just read the job description. What a thankless job.
  • In addition to thankless, the "director of program integrity" position is also in a tough spot.

    How, exactly, does one go about issuing IDs to folks who have very weak forms of identification, while ensuring that they really are who they claim to be?

    ...if the ID has no credibility, no one will respect it and the purpose of the program will be defeated.
  • whynot_31 said:

    Yes, undocumented/illegal immigrants are a group that will be targeted to receive the IDs.

    The goal is cost saving.

    Some estimates state that up to 20% of NYC residents, about 1.8m people, are illegal.

    The vast majority of legal immigrants have ID, and won't benefit.



    I'm not sure I understand the cost savings, but I just don't like the idea of rewarding illegal activity.  Many of us are immigrants or descendants of immigrants.  I am all for immigration, but legal immigration.  I personally, and I'm sure others, wouldn't reward a trespasser or someone breaking and entering into my, or their, home.  The "guest" needs to ring the doorbell and get invited in.  This seems to be a slippery slope.
  • And...how do we stop these people from getting more than one ID under different names since their original proofs may be phony. Hell...if people who work for the TSA don't know that the District of Columbia is part of the United States can we expect the people doing verifications to know the documents of people from other countries???
  • In this instance, the illegal immigrants will benefit, but the city is likely motiviated by a desire to avoid expensive detentions while police wait to verify a person's ID for something like jumping a turnstile (or other offense that people are not deported for).

    An ID is also handy when providing government services. Once the city provides ID to more people, it will be more difficult for contracted agencies (ie nonprofits) to fraudently inflate the numbers of people they serve to inflate their charges to the city.

    This is believed to result in cost savings, because the city will require said non-profits to get copies of the IDs of "most people" who walk thru their doors, and the "over billing" will stop.
  • I hope we live to see it work out that way.
  • Yes, me too.

    I like that it acknowledges that these folks are here to stay and (whether we like "them" or not) we should make the best of it.

    I don't see illegal immigration slowing down until the countries of origin have a standard of living similar to ours.

    There are three ways that can happen:

    1. The standard of living of the country of origin can improve, thru development and increased skills.

    2. Our Standard of living can drop.

    3. A combination of one and two.

    I don't see any of the above happening fast enough to address the problem, and lots of folks benefit from the status quo.
  • @whynot_31 mentions "An ID is also handy when providing government services. Once the city provides ID to more people, it will be more difficult for contracted agencies (ie nonprofits) to fraudulently inflate the numbers of people they serve to inflate their charges to the city."

    I get that, but the US doesn't need to provide "them" with all the conveniences, benefits, and government services as if they are here legally (and paying taxes) in the first place.  The US can, and should, reduce the incentive for "them" to reside here illegally at the cost of legal residents and taxpayers, many of whom are barely scraping by while paying more than there fair share as a result of "them."

    Ring the doorbell, and as an "invited guest," you get all the amenities (and participate in the cost/pay taxes)... not by barging in.
  • To my knowledge, this ID doesn't expand any of the services illegal immigrants are already eligible for.

    However, I suspect the ID will make it easier to secure benefits that their born-in-the US children are eligible for.

    ...I'd be interested in seeing what % of the IDs they believe will be provided to illegal immigrants, vs the other target groups: homeless, just released from prison, those who want a city ID while they get their paperwork together to get better ID.


  • southeast said: whynot_31 said: Many of us are immigrants or descendants of immigrants.  

    There are those of us who are descendants of chattel who were not brought here of their own volition. This chattel was not deported when freed. #
    justsaying

    I agree with @whynot_31 that these undocumented people are likely not going anywhere whether  we like it or not. This is a way of dealing with the current reality. 
  • The degree to which illegal immigrants are here of their own volition is a subject of great debate.

    Like the chattel of ages ago, many of the illegal immigrants are here under indentured servant arrangements, and the vast majority of us "here" benefit from their very cheap labor.

    Using this lens, the city isn't getting rid of this labor, it is just minimizing its negative externalities.

    http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/negative-externality.php

    Using this lens, as long as we gain more than we lose from their presence, it really doesn't matter how many more of them come as a result of receiving an ID from HRA.
  • Today, the NYT ran a piece about how inexpensive immigrant NYS farm labor is:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/nyregion/in-harvest-season-endless-hours-with-no-overtime-for-new-york-farmworkers.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0

    And, legislators are trying to change the situation at the state level:
    http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=ca0fb41d668202ba6cc542ca8&id=0e254f42f5&e=b04317f9a2

    Next stop, NYC's food service industry?
  • One of the concerns advocates have for this program is that they will be only used by marginalized people and therefore will be a target when in use.  This will only work to include these people in our society if a broad selection of people also get and use them.   For this reason I will be getting one.  I wonder if these will be a way to prove age not just identity and whether people like the TSA will allow them to board planes and such. 
  • @tateinbk

    I am not sure if TSA will accept it for travel within the country. That would be very fraught with hazards.

    But you are right, this ID will be for folks who do not have enough documents to obtain a passport, NYS issued ID, or a NYC issued EBT card.

    Each of those is far out of reach for the group being served.

    Undocumented immigrants tend to only be able to engage in off the books employment, so I do not believe showing such an ID would further marginalize this subset when seeking work.

    Other subsets are legally in the country but are often in and out of institutions ( jail, prison, psych, shelters). As a result not having enough ID for Medicaid, they are only eligible for "free" healthcare outside of said institutions.

    I imagine the city hospitals see the new ID as a way to provide better care, and reliably obtain health histories.

    Ditto the shelter system and the Dept of Corrections.

    ....BTW, I believe illegal immigrants utilize the shelter system and end up in jail less frequently than other groups of poor, relatively young, male, New Yorkers. 

     They, after all, must be well enough to support themselves without a government safety net, and are often deported if found guilty of a felony.
  • "In NYC, lots of people are denied the ability to open a bank account ..:"

    1 in 10 unbanked in NYC

    There are no such barriers with Bitcoin.
    All you need is a mobile phone 
    e.g.


  • As discussed above, the police frequently arrest people who do not have ID, whom would otherwise receive a summons.

    They do this because it makes no sense to issue a summons to someone whose identity can not be verified; what is to stop the person from lying about who they are?

    Few cops want to do the work necessary to verify the ID of someone via computer systems, and they are often rewarded for making arrests.

    This article on fare enforcement brings up some interesting points: http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/fare-evasion-arrests-surge-years-article-1.1906667

    Hopefully the next article will look at how many would have been issued summons if they had possessed IDs, and estimate the cost savings from not arresting them.

    After all, people are not deported for jumping a turnstile, and (even for those who are legally in the country) the deterrence difference between receiving a fine and being arrested for such an offense seems difficult to quantify and qualify.

    Lets spend our criminal justice dollars wisely.
  • The city is also incentivizing getting the ID:

    These cultural insitutions were encouraged to offer these discounts....

    http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/home/downloads/pdf/press-releases/2014/cig_basic_membership_package_proposals.pdf
  • Awesome to get the Cultural Institutions Ground organizations. Not many people know that they operate in city owned buildings/space, so all they pay are utilities and programmatic expenses. NYC pays for many infrastructure expenses. They are a discrete group of cultural rigs that get something like 80 percent of department of cultural affairs' grants. The ban cinema incentives alone make me want one of these Ids!
  • I suspect incentivizing them is a way to popularize the IDs and thus remove the stigma @tateinbk discusses above (August 8th).

    ...pretty smart. 
  • Democrats state that if they were to gain control of the NYS Senate, undocumented (or, if you prefer, illegal) immigrants would also be able to get drivers licenses and sit on juries: 

    http://ourtimepress.com/?p=15431
  • Sit on juries????  Seriously?!  So someone, technically, a criminal, in the midst of committing a crime will determine the future of those charged with doing a crime.  Umm...
  • While I don't watch Fox News, I can imagine it giving this bill lots of coverage if it ever makes it to the senate floor.

    I also can't imagine that it would pass even if the Democrats were to gain control of the NYS Senate.
  • It never occurred to me that they would charge for it anything aside from administrative/processing fees. So every year you have to pay for it, it expires, like a club membership? (it also seems from their wording that the free cultural incentives are only for the first year to drive membership)
  • That is not my understanding

    I believe once you have it, it will be valid for a few years (lets assume 3 years from the date of issuance)

    It is free to get in 2015.

    In 2016, the ID might cost $20 and not expire until its date of issuance in 2019.
  • mamacita said:

    (it also seems from their wording that the free cultural incentives are only for the first year to drive membership)



    I got the same feeling and hope that is not the case.  I would drop it like a hot potato.  I don't particularly agree with it's primary goal/purpose, but my family can use the discounts.  So if that ceases to exist, I have no incentive to wait in line and/or pay to renew.
  • I doubt the museums could offer the memberships for free over the long term.

    A substantial part of their revenue comes from memberships, and they would not want to lose that funding stream.
  • Indeed, on a related thread @whatchuwant writes:

    Fine print:


     "This free membership package will not be available to existing members of a participating institution or individuals whose membership has lapsed since January 1, 2012. However, existing or recently lapsed members of a given institution can use their Municipal ID to obtain free membership at all other participating institutions."


    http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/comment/554889#Comment_554889

    So, they seem to want the membership benefits to be primarily used by people who would otherwise not go to museums: The low income, under priviledged folks we talk about above....

  • So the one reason why I would have gotten this ID is quickly fading...
  • whynot_31 said:




    http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/comment/554889#Comment_554889

    So, they seem to want the membership benefits to be primarily used by people who would otherwise not go to museums: The low income, under priviledged folks we talk about above....



    Except those who are from that group in the area cannot use that to go to the Prospect Park Zoo down the street. I wonder why that zoo didn't buy into that yet.
  • @mugofmead - I didn't even notice the Bronx zoo you mentioned in the other thread as I was only looking out for Brooklyn.  But when I searched the document for "zoo," I noted that the Wildlife Conservation Society includes "Free general admission for one adult to the Bronx Zoo, New York Aquarium, Central Park Zoo, Prospect Park Zoo and Queens Zoo."  So we are good. :)

  • A few of the places only allow free admission for one person.

    That is different than an actual membership, which often allows an entire household entrance.
  • @whynot_31 - Well, you know what this means - a family outing to get the ID. :)
  • I had thought this would mean we wouldn't need to get another family membership for the zoo.  Before we had received the delux one as a gift.  But if all my son's babysitters and family members gets an ID I wouldn't need to also get the caregiver delux membership, and instead have the smaller, parents and child only membership.  

    Of course this isn't going to last for too long, it's completely promotional.  But it's a great chance to see just how often my family goes to these places.  It will answer the question if it's really worth joining a couple places, specifically the children's museum for us.  It's a free, one year opportunity to check out some culture.  I can't see any good reasoning for scoffing that.

    I'm curious how it changes donation-admittance places like the Natural History museum.  Will membership also mean free entrance to the planetarium and special exhibits? 
  • I wonder how they have estimated the utilization of the benefits they are offering
  • The DMV's non-driver ID isn't free. The regular fee (for people who aren't seniors or receiving SSI) is $10 or $14 and expires in 4 or 8 years. So I never imagined this would be free either. 

    Next year everyone has the opportunity to get a free card that will give them a free one-year membership to 33 different institutions across all five boroughs -- as a bonus to help those people who actually need the card (because anyone who is getting the ID purely for the memberships clearly doesn't need it). I don't see what all the complaining about what places might not be on the list or how long the free memberships will last is about. 
  • @nothinlikeabklyngirl - you really have to read the recent comments above together with the following discussion: http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/44845/memberships-to-crown-heights-attractions
  • Thanks, @southeast for the clarification. I read the other discussion and I get that some people won't be able to take advantage of all the freebies because of existing/past memberships, and I know that you were looking specifically for a CH-based multi membership. I just wanted to remind everyone that the point of this ID is to help a population in need: 

    "the cards are particularly valuable for the most vulnerable community members -- undocumented immigrants, the homeless, foster youth, the elderly and others who may have difficulty obtaining and retaining other government-issued ID." (http://populardemocracy.org/campaign/expanding-municipal-id-cards)

    For folks like you and me, who have the luxury of not having to worry about ID, the rest is gravy.
  • I like gravy.
  • In addition to tasting good, the gravy might be designed to address some of @tateinbk 's concerns:

    tateinbk said:

    One of the concerns advocates have for this program is that they will be only used by marginalized people and therefore will be a target when in use.  This will only work to include these people in our society if a broad selection of people also get and use them.   For this reason I will be getting one.




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