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Flexichick

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Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 8:52 pm EST     Reply with quote

Ok, my landlord just threatened me with eviction because I told him what the heating law is.

Please give me some guidance as to what rights/groups/attorneys, etc. I have at my disposal to deal with him.

I'm very freaked out now.

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Drano

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Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 9:19 pm EST     Reply with quote

Are you in a rent stabilized apartment?

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Flexichick

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Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 9:24 pm EST     Reply with quote

No, but he wants me out so he can get more.

I want to find out legal options, etc.

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linusvanpelt

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
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Location: Center Slope, between 4th and 5th Avenues

Post Sat Oct 07, 06 9:41 pm EST     Reply with quote

This may already be obvious, but your first stop should be www.tenant.net. I believe you can find references to attorneys there. You can also try posting in the Brownstoner forums -- people have sometimes offered similar legal advice there.

A big question, besides whether you are rent-stabilized is what "evict" means here. If it means, "boot you on the street right now," you have more options and a stronger case than if it means, "choose not to renew your lease when it comes up." Another factor is how many units your building is, which will affect what con of coverage you have under rental and tenants' law.

If bottom line he wants you out so he can charge more, and he's not trying to terminate the lease early, and you are not rent-stabilized, I'm not sure you have a lot of recourse--that is, in that case, he can ask whatever he wants to charge in a new lease and you can accept it or not.

If he's within his legal rights not to renew your lease, my general understanding is that you can make things difficult for him if you just refuse to leave -- but eventually he will get you out, though it may take months. Anecdotally (I've never tried this myself) I don't think this is worth it: in the long run you still need to find a new place and may have a much harder time of it with a court-ordered eviction on your record.

In any case, you should keep a record of your dealings and exchanges with him, and preferably communicate with him in writing, so that there's a paper trail.

Good luck.

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vanilla

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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 9:53 pm EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
Ok, my landlord just threatened me with eviction because I told him what the heating law is.


Flexichick wrote:
... he wants me out so he can get more.


which one is it?

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Flexichick

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Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 10:13 pm EST     Reply with quote

I have a lease that goes through October of 2007.

He never wants to make repairs....everything is an issue. Missed appointments, won't paint, commits to things and then doesn't do them, etc.

I asked him on Sept. 1st to make repairs to the bathroom radiator which stopped working in Nov. of last year (I had no heat at all in the bathroom for the rest of the heating season). I put a note in with my September 1 rent payment asking him to fix it by Oct. 1st.

Now he's saying he doesn't need to put the heat on until Oct. 15th or whenever he wants. He doesn't believe in the law, and he told me so.

He told me he's going to have an inspector here to try to find out if I've done any damage to his house (no damage, but normal wear and tear to wood floors, etc. after 9 years of living here).

I think the law favors me and he's just harassing me. He's already told me many times he wants me out and to raise the rent.

I'd like to find a good lawyer, etc. to know excatly what my rights are and how to deal with him.


Last edited by Flexichick on Sun Oct 08, 06 1:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Flexichick

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Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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Post Sat Oct 07, 06 10:14 pm EST     Reply with quote

vanilla wrote:
Flexichick wrote:
Ok, my landlord just threatened me with eviction because I told him what the heating law is.


Flexichick wrote:
... he wants me out so he can get more.


which one is it?



BOth. He's using the fact that I"m asking him to comply with the law as a way to springboard into getting me out of here, even though I have a signed lease.

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BrooklynJack

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 8:16 am EST     Reply with quote

Don't freak out, document. Start a log book and mark down all the times you should have had heat but didn't. Here's another reference to the heating law and other tenant rights.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/realestate/habitability.html


To tell the truth though I don't think it has been cold enough for the heat to come on, if it should and doesn't call 311

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mykidissmarterthanyourmom

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 8:42 am EST     Reply with quote

File a complaint with the department of buidings/housing. You can go to the civil court in brooklyn to get all the forms and instructions to follow through with a formal complaint. If he trys to evict you after that it will look like a retaliatory eviction (not allowed).

Also, he can't kick you out for no reason. He could kick you out for non-payment, holdover (staying after your lease it up), or some material breach of the lease.

In any event it would take a long long time for him to actually evict you. It's a time consuming process, especially in brooklyn.

Call and complaint to the department of buildings/housing. Wait a week, then go to court and either file an order to show cause to have the landlord fix the problems or see about starding a HD proceeding.


Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:32 am EST     Reply with quote

BrooklynJack wrote:
Don't freak out, document. Start a log book and mark down all the times you should have had heat but didn't. Here's another reference to the heating law and other tenant rights.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/realestate/habitability.html


To tell the truth though I don't think it has been cold enough for the heat to come on, if it should and doesn't call 311


Thanks...according to the law, there have been 2 days so far that I should have had heat...but he says he doesn't care and will turn it on "when he wants"...which could mean a long time for now.

He continues to make repairs (interrupting my water without notice, people on the roof, etc.) that he wants to make...However, if there is a repair that *I* need done - kitchen tiles coming off the floor, broken stove, heat turned on, peeling paint, etc. he won't do it and gets very intimidating....screaming at me, threatening to throw me on the street, etc.

He now claims he's having an inspector come in to try to find anything that he thinks I should pay for...purely as a form of harassment.

I just contacted a lawyer who is giving me a free consultation on Wednesday. He assures me that the law is on my side with a signed lease and that he's harrassing me.

Said I should call the police and 311, take pictures (I did) and document (I did).

I'll see him on Monday

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escap

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:47 am EST     Reply with quote

Are there any other tenants in your building? Have you spoken with them? I'd imagine that if you're cold then you're not the only one. What are other people saying?

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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:50 am EST     Reply with quote

Nope. Just me.

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raw

"Way Too Incestial"


Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:15 am EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:

I think the law favors me and he's just harassing me. He's already told me many times he wants me out and to raise the rent.

I'd like to find a good lawyer, etc. to know excatly what my rights are and how to deal with him.


I think you're right. This landlord sounds like a real jackass. I'd prefer going into debt by paying a good lawyer, who will teach this jerk landlord a lesson, rather than continue to let this jackass get away with harrassing good tenants who pay him well.

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raw

"Way Too Incestial"


Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:19 am EST     Reply with quote

Hang in there, Flexichick.

HARASSMENT

A landlord may not take any action to unlawfully force a rent regulated tenants to vacate their apartments or to give up any rights they have under the rent laws. Landlords found guilty of harassment are subject to fines of up to $5,000 for each violation. Tenants may contact DHCR if they believe they are the victims of harassment. Under certain circumstances, harassment can constitute a class E felony. (Penal Law Article 241)

UTILITY SERVICES HEATING SEASON

Heat must be supplied from October 1 through May 31, to tenants in multiple dwellings if: a) the outdoor temperature falls below 55 degrees Fahrenheit, between 6 A.M. and 10 P.M., each apartment must be heated to a temperature of at least 68 degrees Fahrenheit; (b) the outdoor temperature falls below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, between the hours of 10 P.M. and 6 A.M., each apartment must be heated to a temperature of at least 55 degrees Fahrenheit. (Multiple Dwelling Law § 79)

TRUTH IN HEATING

Before signing a lease requiring payment of individual heating and cooling bills, prospective tenants are entitled to receive from the landlord, a complete set or summary of the past two years' bills. These copies must be provided free upon written request. (Energy Law §17-103)

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Boygabriel

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:20 am EST     Reply with quote

Also for what it's worth, you're perfectly within your legal right to get many of these repairs done yourself and take the money out of your rent. Just continue to document everything (photos, records of efforts to contact him, etc).

Truthfully he actually owes you a rent abatement for some of those inconveniences (non-working stove, radiator, etc), but that's another whole ordeal itself.
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Boygabriel

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:27 am EST     Reply with quote

While we're on the topic of landlords, does anyone know the answer to this question: is the landlord responsible for taking trash out to the curb on trash day?

I live in a non-rent-controlled 'brownstone', it's me and a tenant family upstairs (ie two unit-bldg). We have trash cans out in our front area, and my landlord and i don't know who's responsibility it is to tie up the bags and put them out on trash day.

Anyone know?
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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:34 am EST     Reply with quote

Thanks, everybody.


I feel better knowing that the law is on my side, and I'm going to see if I can have a guy friend come stay with me for a few days just to make me feel more comfortable.


As far as the trash question, I don't know. As a tenant, I do it if I seem to be the first one who notices. It's never been discussed and one of us or the other just seems to do it.


Last edited by Flexichick on Sat Sep 08, 07 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Boygabriel

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:37 am EST     Reply with quote

Be strong!

He's totally talking shit and intimidating you and he knows it. No landlord in the city would honestly believe he can do half the shit he's tried to pull on you. He's in the wrong, legally, on pretty much everything you've described here.
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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:41 am EST     Reply with quote

Seriously, I just wish I had a roommate/boyfriend/brother/cousin, etc. who could get in his face and yell right back at him. I know he pulls this shit because he thinks I'll be intimidated.

He has huge personal issues and is the type of person who thinks that the whole world is taking advantage of him and that he's a good person and that I should be kissing his ass that he lets me live here at below market rate (yes, it's a bit below market, but I'd rather pay market rate and have no issues than this type of shit, and it's not like I'm paying peanuts....the rent has gone up 30% or so in the past few years).

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armchair_warrior

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 3:45 pm EST     Reply with quote

sorry to hear about this. stay strong and teach this sob a lesson. but dont confront him with yelling and stuff no point in that. stay calm and maybe buy like one of these just incase http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/spycam24hids.html .

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brooklynpotter

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Joined: 11 May 2006
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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 6:48 pm EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
Seriously, I just wish I had a roommate/boyfriend/brother/cousin, etc. who could get in his face and yell right back at him. I know he pulls this shit because he thinks I'll be intimidated.

He has huge personal issues and is the type of person who thinks that the whole world is taking advantage of him and that he's a good person and that I should be kissing his ass that he lets me live here at below market rate (yes, it's a bit below market, but I'd rather pay market rate and have no issues than this type of shit, and it's not like I'm paying peanuts....the rent has gone up 30% or so in the past few years).


flexi, if he starts yelling and being intimidating you need to tell him to back off. scream. tell him he's harassing you and if he does not stop you will call 911. then call 911. I'M SERIOUS.
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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 7:20 pm EST     Reply with quote

I'm going to if it happens again. I'm sick of this shit.

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brooklynpotter

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 7:26 pm EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
I'm going to if it happens again. I'm sick of this shit.


seriously, there is NO reason for you to feel in any way frightened or uncomfortable in your own home. this man is obviously trying to flip you out and he's doing a very good job. he wants you to leave, that's also obvious. but you can make it harder for him to do this. and if you need to, you CAN get a restraining order on him. or get out of your lease.

you're a strong women, don't let him f*** with you.
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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 7:29 pm EST     Reply with quote

All true. The more distance I get from him yelling at me, the stronger I feel. I'm not a victim and I'm tired of walking on eggshells and kissing ass just to get him to obey the law only to have him flip out on me on a regular basis.

I also feel better knowing that the law is on my side.

As I continue to take action (documenting, seeing the lawyer, etc.) I feel stronger.

Thanks for everybody's support!

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linusvanpelt

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 394
Location: Center Slope, between 4th and 5th Avenues

Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:22 pm EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
Thanks...according to the law, there have been 2 days so far that I should have had heat...


The law requires that you have heat if the temperature outside falls below a certain number AND the temperature inside falls below a certain level. Have you documented that the temperature inside your apartment has fallen below 68 in the daytime or 55 at night? That's unclear from your posts, unless I'm missing something. If it has, then the law is cut-and-dried.

The other thing I don't get is: you've been there for 9 years and he repeatedly says he wants you to leave so he can raise the rent? If it's a two-family house (right?), he can raise the rent as much as he likes whenever the lease expires. Why didn't he ask for market rent when your lease last expired? Or did it just occur to him nine years after you moved in that he could be charging more? Either way, it seems weird.

Frankly, if he really wants to get a market rent, and if you honestly would "rather pay market rate and have no issues than this type of shit," then why not ask if you can break the lease? Call his bluff. Make his day. I suspect he secretly dreads having a market-rate tenant for whom he will have to do everything the law requires, but if having a below-market rent really doesn't mean that much to you, than it seems a waste of your time to continue living in this situation.

As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.

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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:32 pm EST     Reply with quote

[quote="linusvanpelt"]
Flexichick wrote:
Thanks...according to the law, there have been 2 days so far that I should have had heat...


The law requires that you have heat if the temperature outside falls below a certain number AND the temperature inside falls below a certain level. Have you documented that the temperature inside your apartment has fallen below 68 in the daytime or 55 at night? That's unclear from your posts, unless I'm missing something. If it has, then the law is cut-and-dried.


Yes, there were 2 days that met this criteria



The other thing I don't get is: you've been there for 9 years and he repeatedly says he wants you to leave so he can raise the rent? If it's a two-family house (right?), he can raise the rent as much as he likes whenever the lease expires. Why didn't he ask for market rent when your lease last expired? Or did it just occur to him nine years after you moved in that he could be charging more? Either way, it seems weird.

he has raised the rent a few times, and I agreed to the increases (although he wanted much more and we negotated downwards.....However, whenever faced with a repair (especially in the past year), he counters with "you're lucky I let you get away with paying what you're paying and I'm never offering you another lease again". The reality is he wants as much money as he can get and I suspect he WILL be unhappy if he gets a market rate tenant who holds him to the law more strictly than I have

Frankly, if he really wants to get a market rent, and if you honestly would "rather pay market rate and have no issues than this type of shit," then why not ask if you can break the lease? Call his bluff. Make his day. I suspect he secretly dreads having a market-rate tenant for whom he will have to do everything the law requires, but if having a below-market rent really doesn't mean that much to you, than it seems a waste of your time to continue living in this situation.

Unfortunately, I am not in a financial position to move now and being currently unemployed, my ability to find a new place will be limited as some landlords won't rent to me (although I could get a co-signer, I prefer to just finish out this lease and THEN leave when the lease expires and pay more if I have to as long as I have a reasonable, law-abiding landlord)
As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.[/quote}

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linusvanpelt

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
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Location: Center Slope, between 4th and 5th Avenues

Post Sun Oct 08, 06 10:44 pm EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
The reality is he wants as much money as he can get and ...


See, I disagree. If he really wanted as much money as he could get, he'd have gotten it long ago by now, from someone else. He wouldn't have negotiated down rent. Market-rate tenants in Park Slope are not exactly hard to find. I think what he wants is the path of least resistance. [Doesn't want the expense/hassle of fixing up the place for a new tenant, whatever...]

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, just that there is clearly some other motiviation in him besides the money -- otherwise it simply does not add up. And perhaps you can use that as leverage.

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Flexichick

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Post Sun Oct 08, 06 11:01 pm EST     Reply with quote

You have a point. He doesn't want to do the repairs and he probably factored that in when deciding how much to charge me.



I know he pulls out the rent rate issue whenever he doesn't want to make a repair.



That said, I know I've kept this place in fine condition and I think if it came down to it he'd be fined for peeling paint, failing to make repairs, the kitchen floor, water damage to the ceiling, etc. etc. etc.

In the end, I don't want to go down that road. I just want to live out my lease for another year in PEACE.

I know my job situation will change by then and I'll be in a better financial position to find a place where I can live without the battles that this guy likes to engage in.

The whole thing is making me tired! Crying or Very sad


Last edited by Flexichick on Sat Sep 08, 07 12:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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cheflady

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Post Mon Oct 09, 06 11:56 am EST     Reply with quote

www.nolo.com

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Boygabriel

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Post Mon Oct 09, 06 1:07 pm EST     Reply with quote

linusvanpelt wrote:

As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.


Yeah, I meant on trash day, who's responsibility is it to take the trash bags from the cans outside out to the curb. I know it's only a 2-unit building, but it's still the landlord's responsibility, right?

anyone know for sure? I couldn't find anything on nyc.gov's tenant/renting websites.
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armchair_warrior

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Post Mon Oct 09, 06 1:09 pm EST     Reply with quote

Boygabriel wrote:
linusvanpelt wrote:

As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.


Yeah, I meant on trash day, who's responsibility is it to take the trash bags from the cans outside out to the curb. I know it's only a 2-unit building, but it's still the landlord's responsibility, right?

anyone know for sure? I couldn't find anything on nyc.gov's tenant/renting websites.



not really sure but i think its the landlords if its larger than 4 families. but dont quote me on it.

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pitu

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Post Mon Oct 09, 06 1:38 pm EST     Reply with quote

armchair_warrior wrote:
Boygabriel wrote:
linusvanpelt wrote:

As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.


Yeah, I meant on trash day, who's responsibility is it to take the trash bags from the cans outside out to the curb. I know it's only a 2-unit building, but it's still the landlord's responsibility, right?

anyone know for sure? I couldn't find anything on nyc.gov's tenant/renting websites.



not really sure but i think its the landlords if its larger than 4 families. but dont quote me on it.


I wouldn't expect to find it in housing law, but even in two unit buildings it is the landlord that gets the ticket from the sanitation dept if the trash isn't taken care of properly, right?
But if the tenant doesn't take care of their trash, it's grounds for an eviction process.

I've only seen trash arrangments be informal -- when we lived above a frail lady who owned the building, so we took out the trash . . . when we lived in a 3 unit with an absentee landlord, whoever thought of it took it to the curb . . .

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linusvanpelt

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Post Mon Oct 09, 06 3:55 pm EST     Reply with quote

Boygabriel wrote:
linusvanpelt wrote:

As for the trash question: it's the landlord's responsibility to bring trash to the curb, tho I'm not sure what boygabriel meant by "tie up the bags" -- obviously it's your own responsibility to bag your trash and bring it from your kitchen to the outside cans.


Yeah, I meant on trash day, who's responsibility is it to take the trash bags from the cans outside out to the curb. I know it's only a 2-unit building, but it's still the landlord's responsibility, right?

anyone know for sure? I couldn't find anything on nyc.gov's tenant/renting websites.


Oh, I see. Well, it is the landlord who's legally liable for trash tickets. But -- I guess this is a little OT -- I'd always take the cans to the curb rather than set the bags out. That's just setting the dinner table for rats.

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Flexichick

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Post Tue Oct 10, 06 10:06 am EST     Reply with quote

Aha! Landlord just told me he's going to back off because he doesn't want lawyers involved and he will have the heat on by Friday at the latest (I don't need it now, but will if it gets cold this weekend) as soon as the pipe repairs are finished.

He told me he will not raise his voice to me again (I talked to his mother and told him it was simply unacceptable for him to be screaming at me and if he continued things were going to escalate, which was not what I was looking for).

I also made sure that he heard me on the phone with a lawyer and talking about the peeling paint, kitchen floor, etc. and realized he'd be in for a long and costly battle.

I'm relieved. I didn't want this shit and stress to begin with. I just want him to make repairs as needed, obey the heat laws and talk to me like an adult with respect and not make me feel threatened in my apartment.

I'm still documenting it all in case he ever loses his shit with me again!


Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Boygabriel

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Post Tue Oct 10, 06 10:26 am EST     Reply with quote

* * stands and applauds * *

well done.

each landlord is different, it sounds like this one is affected by threats of lawyers. that's a useful tool.

out of curiosity, how old is he? is his mom a co-owner?
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Flexichick

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Post Tue Oct 10, 06 10:47 am EST     Reply with quote

He's in his late 40s and has some serious anger issues and seems to think he can just bully anybody

His mom is the primary owner, but he may have managed to get power of attorney or possibly co-ownership

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linusvanpelt

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Post Tue Oct 10, 06 11:18 am EST     Reply with quote

Flexichick wrote:
He told me he will not raise his voice to me again (I talked to his mother...


Aha! You found his Achilles heel.

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quijibo

Crooklyn Ninja


Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 2028
Location: taintalicious!

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 11:44 am EST     Reply with quote

congratulations! i'm glad you were able to resolve this Very Happy

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brooklynpotter

ceramme ceramma danna


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 3996
Location: near the square that's a circle

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 1:21 pm EST     Reply with quote

brava!
_________________
what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

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Flexichick

Windsor Terrorist


Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 9623

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 1:45 pm EST     Reply with quote

Thanks everybody. It's a big relief!

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armchair_warrior

retsop cixelsyd


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 5800
Location: boondocks

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 1:59 pm EST     Reply with quote

cong rats, i still think you should get some sort of camera system to just incase get him.

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sweet tea

Cooler Ham


Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 4960
Location: the jewish

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 2:00 pm EST     Reply with quote

armchair_warrior wrote:
cong rats,


on a side note, armchair, this may be my favorite typo of all time. Wink

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armchair_warrior

retsop cixelsyd


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 5800
Location: boondocks

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 2:40 pm EST     Reply with quote

sweet tea wrote:
armchair_warrior wrote:
cong rats,


on a side note, armchair, this may be my favorite typo of all time. Wink


oh its deliberate hehe. its part of internet message baord congratulations. its widely used, its more funny that way.

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sweet tea

Cooler Ham


Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 4960
Location: the jewish

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 3:16 pm EST     Reply with quote

armchair_warrior wrote:
sweet tea wrote:
armchair_warrior wrote:
cong rats,


on a side note, armchair, this may be my favorite typo of all time. Wink


oh its deliberate hehe. its part of internet message baord congratulations. its widely used, its more funny that way.


oh Embarassed

well, you introduced it to me, anyway, even if you didn't orginate it. it's fab.

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armchair_warrior

retsop cixelsyd


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 5800
Location: boondocks

Post Tue Oct 10, 06 3:30 pm EST     Reply with quote

sweet tea wrote:
armchair_warrior wrote:
sweet tea wrote:
armchair_warrior wrote:
cong rats,


on a side note, armchair, this may be my favorite typo of all time. Wink


oh its deliberate hehe. its part of internet message baord congratulations. its widely used, its more funny that way.


oh Embarassed

well, you introduced it to me, anyway, even if you didn't orginate it. it's fab.


its kool Smile.

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