Germany moves to ban Scientology

Interesting developments in Germany.

More than 10 years ago, my German friends, whom I consider pretty liberal, went completely in to a tirade when the discussion of scientology in Germany came up.

They hated Scientology and what was going on in Germany (buying tons of prime property/ real estate and "churches" popping up in the countryside). It seemed to stem from beyond the "religious" arguement because they did not consider Scientology a religion, they just though they were scam artists preying on people.

But since it's "Germany", I can already feel the tension in the air with a move like this, you know, the banning a "religion"/ group and all....sounds familiar...They would be the first government to ban or attempt to ban Scientology wouldn't they?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7133867.stm

Germany moves to ban Scientology

Berlin's Scientology centre
Critics of Scientology say its views are too "black and white"
Germany's federal and state interior ministers have declared the Church of Scientology unconstitutional, clearing the way for a possible ban.

The ministers have asked Germany's domestic intelligence agency to examine whether the Church's legal status as an association could be challenged.

Scientology is not recognised as a religion in Germany.

A Church of Scientology statement said the ministers were "completely out of step with the rest of the world".

The attempted ban is "a blatant attempt at justifying the on-going and never-ending discrimination against the Church of Scientology and its members in Germany," said the Church in a statement.

Critics accuse the organisation of cult-type practices and exploiting followers for financial gain.

But Scientologists reject this and say that they promote a religion based on the understanding of the human spirit.

Cult-type practices

Since January, when the Church of Scientology opened a new centre in the German capital, Berlin, Scientologists have come under intense public scrutiny.

People living near the centre complained that its members were actively trying to recruit and some politicians called for the organisation to be banned, accusing it of cult-type practices.

For years, Scientology has been monitored by German intelligence agencies, who claim the movement's structures and methods could pose a threat to the rule of law and "democratic order".

But the Church of Scientology insists that 10 years of surveillance "has uncovered absolutely no wrongdoing".

Under the ministers' new plan, the intelligence services have been asked to draw up a report on Scientology, and ministers will then have to clarify whether there is a legal basis for a ban.

But the BBC's Tristana Moore in Berlin says given the lobbying power of Germany's 6,000 Scientologists, who say they have a right to freedom of religion, it will be difficult to introduce a ban.

Scientology was founded in the United States in the 1950s by science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard.

In October, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.

Given Germany's past, it is kind of scary. I mean, Scientology is ridiculous, but it's no more or less ridiculous than any other religion.

A truism: you can make it illegal, but you can't stop it from being popular.

Come to think of it, you can argue that Scientology is less ridiculous than other religions, because it's fairly open about its purpose being to create equity for its shareholders.

Scientology, less ridiculous than [full in the blank with practically anything you can think of] _____? I think not.

Oh, and Tom Cruise is the Anti-Christ. :evil:

MichaelKeys wrote: Scientology, less ridiculous than [full in the blank with practically anything you can think of] _____? I think not.

Oh, and Tom Cruise is the Anti-Christ. :evil:

I don't see how one could make an argument that any one religion is any more or less ridiculous than any other, since they're all based on the equally tenuous grounds of "faith."

From the German Embassy in D.C. - this is a fascinating background paper...

"The German government considers the Scientology organization a commercial enterprise with a history of taking advantage of vulnerable individuals and an extreme dislike of any criticism. The government is also concerned that the organization's totalitarian structure and methods may pose a risk to Germany's democratic society. Several kinds of evidence have influenced this view of Scientology, including the organization's activities in the United States...."

"...In its ads and writings, the Scientology organization claims it is internationally recognized as a religion, except in Germany. This is false.

Among the countries that do not consider Scientology a religion are Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, and Spain, as well as Israel and Mexico."

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html

So, no vilification of Germany is required - they're doing the right thing IMHO.

Livetotravel wrote: From the German Embassy in D.C. - this is a fascinating background paper...

"The German government considers the Scientology organization a commercial enterprise with a history of taking advantage of vulnerable individuals and an extreme dislike of any criticism. The government is also concerned that the organization's totalitarian structure and methods may pose a risk to Germany's democratic society. Several kinds of evidence have influenced this view of Scientology, including the organization's activities in the United States...."

"...In its ads and writings, the Scientology organization claims it is internationally recognized as a religion, except in Germany. This is false.

Among the countries that do not consider Scientology a religion are Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, and Spain, as well as Israel and Mexico."

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html

So, no vilification of Germany is required - they're doing the right thing IMHO.

You could say the exact same things about the Catholic church. It's just on a bigger scale. Have you been to the Vatican? It makes the wealth amassed by the Scientology bigwigs look paltry.

I couldn't agree more - and you don't have to go to Rome, you can just travel the Palisades along the Hudson - the CC owns most of it.

I also feel the same way about Unitarian Universalism - isn't that just a social change movement masquerading as a religion?

Carnivore wrote: [quote=MichaelKeys]Scientology, less ridiculous than [full in the blank with practically anything you can think of] _____? I think not.

Oh, and Tom Cruise is the Anti-Christ. :evil:

I don't see how one could make an argument that any one religion is any more or less ridiculous than any other, since they're all based on the equally tenuous grounds of "faith."

Lighten up, it's a joke.

:roll:

I find most religions to be pretty ridiculous but Scientology has an especially creepy vibe to me.

Carnivore wrote: You could say the exact same things about the Catholic church. It's just on a bigger scale. Have you been to the Vatican? It makes the wealth amassed by the Scientology bigwigs look paltry.

hehe. when I was at the vatican I sent some postcards to folks (using their postoffice) talking about my new boyfriend in a long,white, silky dress. (judy tenuta rip off) also, if you tour the pope's stuff, you'll see that it's all bling. the biggest diamonds I've ever seen are ensconced in the vaitcan. major bling. he can court me any day.

Didn't he take a vow of travesty?

Carnivore wrote: [quote=Livetotravel]From the German Embassy in D.C. - this is a fascinating background paper...

"The German government considers the Scientology organization a commercial enterprise with a history of taking advantage of vulnerable individuals and an extreme dislike of any criticism. The government is also concerned that the organization's totalitarian structure and methods may pose a risk to Germany's democratic society. Several kinds of evidence have influenced this view of Scientology, including the organization's activities in the United States...."

"...In its ads and writings, the Scientology organization claims it is internationally recognized as a religion, except in Germany. This is false.

Among the countries that do not consider Scientology a religion are Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, and Spain, as well as Israel and Mexico."

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html

So, no vilification of Germany is required - they're doing the right thing IMHO.

You could say the exact same things about the Catholic church. It's just on a bigger scale. Have you been to the Vatican? It makes the wealth amassed by the Scientology bigwigs look paltry.
So true. If only the Church could tear down the Sistine Chapel's ceiling and sell it to the highest bidder, it could start funding schools and hospitals. Oh wait...

Seriously, so much of that wealth is in art and architecture, it would be difficult to relocate, and even for historical reasons it makes better sense to leave it where it is and run it as a museum. I can't get up in arms about this when the Church has so many other sins to rail against.

I don't see how one could make an argument that any one religion is any more or less ridiculous than any other, since they're all based on the equally tenuous grounds of "faith."

You're right. I initially found Mormonism to be odd because it's based on the belief in a new revelation, but it's no weirder than the idea of a man three days dead coming back to life. Familiarity is what removes a belief's power to shock.

sprite wrote: You're right. I initially found Mormonism to be odd because it's based on the belief in a new revelation, but it's no weirder than the idea of a man three days dead coming back to life. Familiarity is what removes a belief's power to shock.

Really? Maybe just a tad weird that in the LDS doctrine "the Savior [will] appear and build the new Jerusalem in Jackson County, Mo." Ain't that just a tad bit weirder than anything else? :roll:

Jackson County, MO? Really? I should book my flight now and beat the crowds.

Livetotravel wrote: [quote=sprite]You're right. I initially found Mormonism to be odd because it's based on the belief in a new revelation, but it's no weirder than the idea of a man three days dead coming back to life. Familiarity is what removes a belief's power to shock.

Really? Maybe just a tad weird that in the LDS doctrine "the Savior [will] appear and build the new Jerusalem in Jackson County, Mo." Ain't that just a tad bit weirder than anything else? :roll:
Weirder than a magic creature in the sky that created the universe in 6 days, that's his own son, that was nailed to a piece of wood on a Friday, and somehow rose from the dead 3 days later... on a Sunday? Did they used to have an extra day between Friday and Sunday?
A "savior" appearing in Jackson County, Mo is no weirder than one appearing anywhere else. With a few very rare exceptions, it's not like most people chose their religion after considering all the options and deciding which made the most logical sense. Most people believe what their parents believed. And those that don't mostly believe in whatever church made them feel the most welcome and offered a community they liked best.

Before I depledged from Roman Catholicism, we used to call it the "Great Magic Show."

You know what this means, don't you?

No more Chick Corea concerts in Germany!!

"...and on the fourth cloud on the left, ladies and gentlemen, is the actual location of the magic creature in the sky..."

Back to topic: Scientology is really dangerous. An established religion generally doesn't have the power to isolate you from others, but a cult will do their damnedest to do so. My voice teacher got involved with Scientology and I haven't heard from her since. (No, she hasn't disappeared near as I can tell, but she refuses to speak to me because I'm not a Scientologist.) If you convert to an established religion, generally you are not encouraged to cut off all contact with friends and family.

And while traditionally, the Catholic church wielded a lot of power, that was before there was even a concept of separation of church and state. The Catholic church in the United States has done NONE of the subversive activities that the "Church" of Scientology has. They've practically gone out of their way to take over Hollywood (while the Sabbateans and their Kabbalah cult is trying to take over the music industry - sorry, there is NOTHING Jewish about a red string around the wrist and traditional Judaism frowns on anyone studying Kabbalah without a thorough grounding in Torah first).

These people are very, very dangerous. There is no comparison between them and any established religion. It only compares (and that by a stretch) to Catholicism of A THOUSAND YEARS AGO. And even then, it was such a part of the warp and woof of life back then there is really no comparison. The Catholic church didn't subvert governments because for many centuries, it WAS the government, and European history is really about the struggle of secular authorities to wrest authority AWAY from the church, either by working with it or against it.

Scientology is trying to subvert secular governments, and that's worse.

Ugh. I just got a casting call for yet ANOTHER Scientology industrial. :evil: :evil:

lilbangladesh wrote: Scientology is trying to subvert secular governments, and that's worse.

And the Christian right hasn't been trying to do that in the U.S.? Have you been living in the same country that I have for the past 7 years?

Scientology is a cult, not a religion. It has been sued successfully for millions of dollars and rightfully so.


As for the Christian right, Florida Republicans have worked with the Scientology cultists for several years. The cult is a particular favorite of Jeb Bush. :twisted:

prodigalson wrote: Scientology is a cult, not a religion.

cult /kʌlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhlt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.the object of such devotion.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.the members of such a religion or sect.
8.any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
–adjective
9.of or pertaining to a cult.
10.of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

By any objective definition, the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.

religion Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom9. get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

Agreed, not too much difference there.

I think not only the size but the duration matters when defining a cult. For example, there are only 712 Samaritans, but you wouldn't call them a cult.

Likewise, a sect is not the same as a cult. You can have a group with few members, who split from a larger orthodoxy, but aren't generally referred to as a cult. For example, the Exclusive Brethren.

doctorj wrote: I think not only the size but the duration matters when defining a cult. For example, there are only 712 Samaritans, but you wouldn't call them a cult.

This is true. In the early days of Christianity, it too would have been a cult, with Jesus as its charismatic cult leader. When mainstream religion condemns something as a cult, that's just the modern equivalent of calling it "heresy."
In time, I'm sure there will be no question about whether Scientology is a religion.

Carnivore wrote: [quote=doctorj]I think not only the size but the duration matters when defining a cult. For example, there are only 712 Samaritans, but you wouldn't call them a cult.

This is true. In the early days of Christianity, it too would have been a cult, with Jesus as its charismatic cult leader.

Indeed. Or arguably, Peter, then especially Paul, since Jesus was dead before things got going. The cult was founded around the 'resurrection' (most likely in Galilee, not Jerusalem) and shortly after at pentecost. It's also possible that James was the main charismatic leader, before Paul took over and wrote him out of the script.

Well, it didn't start with Jesus because he wasn't trying to found a different religion, he was trying to reform Judaism. This became a sect, which became a cult of sorts (though I'm not sure this qualifies; while early Christians were expected to give up their worldly goods, I'm not sure that they were required to cut off all ties with family or not allowed to leave if they wanted to. Scientology and the Moonies generally won't let you leave if you want to. Bad things have happened to those who tried to escape.) and then finally an established religion, especially one the Roman emperor Constantine converted. Early Christianity did spin off cults of its own, which they branded as heresy, such as the Gnostic cult and Manicheanism.

Cults for the most part require a charismatic leader. Where would the Unification Church be without the Rev. Moon? Scientology had L. Ron Hubbard, but now has Tom Cruise. (I kid, but that's why they are using Hollywood to spread!) Organized religion, once it's established, doesn't really need that anymore.

As far as the Christian right goes, there are far more Christians who would prefer not to dirty their hands with politics than those who do. This is a recent phenomenon (only in the past 50 years) when Jerry Falwell came into the picture. But Christianity has also been used for liberal purposes, such as the struggle for civil rights. The Christian right is more powerful, not because they are more numerous, but because they are more vocal. The Christian left basically fell down rather than stand up publicly for what they believed.

I basically think the Christian right *at this point in time* is pretty irrelevant. They used to have power, but they've been edged out by the Republican party. They really don't have that much influence anymore, what with all those evangelist scandals. They will continue to be noisy, but they're not running the show anymore. They had much more influence under Reagan.

Now the fact that Jeb Bush is working with Scientologists would give me one more reason NOT to vote for him. That, and the fact that he's only slightly less of a dim bulb than his brother.