SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

whynot_31

HCH, et al,

I'll soon be back in town and could jabber off line.

We could do a noisy dinner at the Indian place on Franklin or Sapid on Washington.

....I am craving indian.

Lurkers always welcome.

whynot_31

HCH, et al,

I'll soon be back in town and could jabber off line.

We could do a noisy dinner at the Indian place on Franklin or Sapid on Washington.

....I am craving indian.

Lurkers always welcome.

whynot_31

P.S. Be excellent teach other

mha

Well, I will definitely not be there. No offline discourse for me.

hiscrownheights

P.S. Be excellent teach other

Thats what we've been doing ... LOL.... ROFL.

yo for real on the offline discourse. Set it up cuzzo whynot. Yo MHA, can i get your email addy. PM me.

capt. planet

I dig that Indian place. Count me in!

whynot_31

HCH and I have been PMing, and seem to be settling on a mon - thur, sometime during the week of 1/25/11. Do those dates work for you?

prodigalson

AKA = better translation: ''also known as''

there's a joke in all this, I suppose

mha

ProdigalSon, I figured as much, but I don't understand what Mr. Met meant by that.

Not really feeling getting warm and fuzzy with folk here HCH, no offense.... I'm sure you are a wonderful person, but, alas, still, we need to commune via the avatar. I still think there is virtue in it. Whenever I see folks I know are online, I can't help but see the fleshed mask as 'construct'. here we are the construct we create. Want to keep it that way for the sake of discourse.

whynot_31

HCH, Capt, and anyone else that wants to come-

How about we settle on

Wed 1/26/10.

7 PM

Sapid

?

whynot_31

HCH-

Regarding my "be excellent to each other" becoming "be excellent, teach each other", Tom Petty may say it best.

whynot_31

hiscrownheights

whynot_31 said:

HCH, Capt, and anyone else that wants to come-

How about we settle on

Wed 1/26/10.

7 PM

Sapid

?

WOW. I wish you wouldve PMed me. I have notifications that way. I havent been on this site in weeks.... I got a new job! LOL. I can say to be safe Wednesdays and Thursdays are dangerous nights to schedule anything for me.

As far as the songs, I've read the lyrics and am wondering what you are trying to communicate?

In re: Who Made Who? I think this is a cool book end to it, AC/DC part A and this song part B? And it has the lyrics on the youtube page. Pay attention to the pictures in the vid!! They're dope!



CLEAN UP:

"He did it at his discretion"

"No You're wiser than us all"

"We're reminded that your Sovereign, it was all on schedule."

"You'll restore us back to the image of Christ, chant..."

whynot_31

I communicate only that whether there is a god, and what form that god takes is a a discussion that has been going since the beginning of time, and unlikely to be resolved soon.

The "distinguished" members of AC/DC even thought about it

hiscrownheights

ah that's where I disagree. There is a God and he took on the form of human flesh, and dwelled among us, he got calluses on his feet, he sweated, he was tired, he cried, he healed, he protected, he touched, he died and he rose from the grave. The issue is a closed matter. And he says, "I'm here, I'm alive. In my true followers, in art, in architecture." Those who have grown up in Christian homes may remember what he said to doubting Thomas, but he also said this:

But you haven't believed in me even though you have seen me.John 6:36

I pray that you see him, up close and personal.

*By the way, if Weds night is the best night for all, I'll be glad to meet up

ntfool

Again, I appreciate your faith, but I certainly don't consider it a "closed matter". You read that god took human form to live among us in a book. Well, who wrote that book? And to what end?

Not everyone that grew up in a Christian household, as I did, has your level of faith.

whynot_31

Perhaps HisCrownHeights is simply stating that "for him" it is a "closed matter". Surely he is not claiming that we all must believe as he does.

...as we discussed earlier, such a belief would:

a. invalidate all religions and belief systems other than christianity

b. assume that there was a unified definition of "christianity" or its meaning. When I last checked, the Klan, the unitarians, the born agains, and catholics all seem to lay claim to practicing the teachings of Jesus and believing that he was "god".

On the other hand, I merely claim that the debate over "whether there is a God" has been going on for eons, and is unresolved. Do I need to cite more than AC/DC and this thread as evidence?

hiscrownheights

Perhaps HisCrownHeights is simply stating that "for him" it is a closed matter. Surely he is not claiming that we all must believe as he does.

...as we discussed earlier, such a belief would:

a. invalidate all religions and belief systems other than christianity

b. assume that their was a unified definition of "christianity" or its meaning. When I last checked, the Klan, the unitarians, the born agains, and catholics all seem to lay claim to being Christian.

On the other hand, I merely claim that the debate over "whether there is a God" has been going on for eons, and is unresolved. Do I need to cite more than AC/DC and this thread as evidence?

EDITED: those are great questions, I'll not double post.

It was written by God through people. 40 different people over thousands of years, nt. and it's not about my "level of faith". Size of a mustard seed? My "level of faith" is not something I achieved. It's a gift. I was given it. I appreciate that you disagree with what I said about it being a closed matter. I dont mean to say its something that cant be discussed, I mean to say its been written, recorded, it's true. But to many, it's not "truth". That's where faith comes in. Because they can say someone was robbed at gunpoint at Bedford and Lincoln. They can show me pictures, write an article, but I wasnt there. I didnt see it. So my question is: what gets us to believe what we read in the newspaper, on TV, in books? Do we not also exercise faith to a degree?

a. Yeah. It's insane. That's why there's so much hatred. From the world at large, from religions. And it's actually freeing and not burdensome. I was more confused when I thought all religions, beliefs were cool as long as we're following our belief closely.

b. As far as many people laying claim to be Christian: we have to examine what it means to believe in Christ through what the Bible says. Read that as, not BE A CHRISTIAN, but to BELIEVE in Christ. I can imitate a mime, throw on a paint, but does that make me a mime?

whynot_31

That you believe in a christian god, and live what you consider to be a christian life, has yet to be disputed by anyone on this thread.

It seems that I (and perhaps ntfool, and some other posters) are stating that:

a. We do not believe in a christian god, and

b. Despite your impassioned pleas and thorough knowledge of the bible, we continue to feel no need to change our minds.

Even if I were to somehow find/achieve your "god given" ability to believe in a god, I fail to see the need to do so. I look at it somewhat selfishly ....at this point in my life, believing in a god sounds like work without any potential payoff.

As discussed above with Capt Planet, I find I am able to be a moral being without believing in an afterlife that is contingent on my present behaviors.

Hence, if I were to believe in a god or religion, I think I would choose one that didn't try to make be behave in the present life "as if" there were an afterlife.

Do you mention "having faith in things you do not directly experience" because you do not believe atheists can enjoy such faith?

....do you believe that I (and other atheists) are incapable of faith in anything? For example, that only people who believe in god can believe the newspaper, TV or books?

hiscrownheights

I look at it somewhat selfishly ....at this point in my life, believing in a god sounds like work without any potential payoff.

As discussed above with Capt Planet, I find I am able to be a moral being without believing in an afterlife that is contingent on my present behaviors.

It's not about work. That's the difference between Christianity and religion. And as far as being a moral person, I agree. You can. But being perfect and righteous is another bag.

Do you mention "having faith in things you do not directly experience" because you do not believe atheists can enjoy such faith?..do you believe that I (and other atheists) are incapable of faith in anything? For example, that only people who believe in god can believe the newspaper, TV or books?

No. On the contrary, I am guessing atheists do have a faith they enjoy. That's why I asked those couple questions. I'd love some feedback.

whynot_31

It's not about work. That's the difference between Christianity and religion. And as far as being a moral person, I agree. You can. But being perfect and righteous is another bag.

I try to grow a little, and live my life a better each day. ...but I do not believe I will ever achieve perfection or righteousness. I don't see either of those qualities as achievable, and try not to present myself as anymore "perfect" or "righteous" than anyone else because I find those who do be pretty annoying.

Frankly, throughout my life I've encountered people who are of various religions (christian, atheist, hindu, jewish etc), and have developed a suspicion of those who claim that on the basis of their religion (or, actually, on ANY basis) they either "do not shit, or somehow their shit does not stink". I'd like to think I'm suspicious of everyone equally.

...but I will admit there are a lot of people in the world better than me. I just can't assign anyone "better than" status as a result of a religion or faith they possess; I try to assign such judgement solely on the basis of their actions.

I'd like you to expand on your belief that christians either have been given the ability to believe, or have not. This conflicts with my perception that many christians I know (such as family members) constantly struggle to maintain their faith.

It also conflicts with me being told "I don't believe in christ, or much of what my church teaches, but I go to church for the fellowship and community it offers me. I would be alone in life without my congregation. They are wonderful". I feel a comradery with these folks, and have thought to myself "if I ever find myself alone in life, I would go to church too. I would participate in the potlucks, wear a tie, and sing along with the best of them."

Do you believe that a lot of the people in the pews to your left and right are there for similar reasons?

No. On the contrary, I am guessing atheists do have a faith they enjoy. That's why I asked those couple questions. I'd love some feedback.

I only speak for myself, but I believe the main difference in "having faith" (as you define it) between people who are not christian AND those who are christian is the faith in christ thing.

I think on other issues of "faith", we are pretty similar and can see eye to eye. I, too, read the newspaper and watch the news ... while I am skeptical, I will admit to believing most of it. (Please note that new sources on the far left or right, or ones with obvious agendas I tend to doubt; I suspect you doubt them as well).

....of course, there are those christians who claim evolution didn't happen, that homosexuals are evil, and that anyone who isn't christian is less than them, etc. Despite my best efforts, I can't see eye to eye with those people.

However, you have repeatedly, and convincing stated you are not one of those, so I see the differences between you and I as relatively minor.

ntfool

HisCrownHeights said:

It was written by God through people. 40 different people over thousands of years, nt.

This is still a sticking point for me. God told people to write the Bible, i.e., God either dictated to them what to write, or planted the idea to write specific sections in specific individuals' heads, correct?

How do you know that's how it went down? Because it seems like you're getting second or third-thousandth hand information. Are there passages in the Bible which detail how it was written? If so, that's would be called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just because the powers that be (i.e., the Church) have put forth the idea that God, in some form or another, influenced mortal men to author the Bible in its initial form some 2,000 years ago does not make it fact. And on that topic, how is it that the first form of the Bible was apparently written some 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ? How do we reconcile the fact that the Gospel according to this or that Apostle was possibly written hundreds of years after said Apostle was dead and buried?

More interesting to me, If Emperor Constantine had not declared Christianity to be the state-enforced religion of the Roman Empire in the 320's AD (or maybe the decade before... can't remember off the top of my head), would Christianity have lasted as long as it has? Keep in mind, the relatively new religion that is Christianity was persecuted to the point of non-existence in the Empire just 50 years before. If it had been fully vanquished, what would our modern landscape look like?

My wildly untrained, knee jerk opinion is that no matter the form that organzied religion takes, it is always, in some way or another, a power grab. A very human, mortal weakness.

whynot_31

ntfool, et al,

Rather than continue to type here, HCH and I are in the process of setting up a time to again meet in person.

We will advise you of the location and time, and you are welcome to join us.

In the event that we reach an agreement on:

a. the existence of god

b. his/her/its form

c. his/her/its wishes

....we promise to publish our results here first.

ntfool

I'd love to join you, but bad timing at the moment. I've been working ungodly hours in light of a big project, and my wife is likely feeling abandoned with our two young children.

I don't think that, on the off chance that I'm not at work, I could get away with escaping for a relaxing meal and/or drink to discuss the vagaries of the mystery of God. In fact, even picturing her expression to that request gives me the chills.

Perhaps next time. Thanks for the invite.

whynot_31

http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/childrens-bible-missing-a-certain-key-point/

greatness

nofay

nofay

hiscrownheights

I'm here. Been a while. I apologize. Really. I thought about clicking "alert me to replies" but I wasn't looking for a flood of emails per each post.

I'd like you to expand on your belief that christians either have been given the ability to believe, or have not. This conflicts with my perception that many christians I know (such as family members) constantly struggle to maintain their faith.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Simple. Man, it's a shame though. And it happens all the time.

Do you believe that a lot of the people in the pews to your left and right are there for similar reasons?

Some maybe, but that circles back to 1 John 2:19 and Jesus' parable of seeds.

Mark 4:

16And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

And some are genuinely hurt by the church. So they leave. I pray for those people, but I also think: "man, if only church discipline was properly in practice then:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

AND

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

TO NT:

How do you know that's how it went down? Because it seems like you're getting second or third-thousandth hand information. Are there passages in the Bible which detail how it was written? If so, that's would be called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

2 Tim 3:16, 17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

ALL. ALL BIBLE. that's bananas. no other book of "religion" self-proclaims it's inerrancy.

Also, in the book of Matthew there are many scriptures about how Jesus does things that fulfill "Old Testament" scripture.

I.E.

Psalm 22 (written thousands of years before)

17 I can count all my bones—

they stare and gloat over me;

18 they divide my garments among them,

and for my clothing they cast lots.

Matt 27 (thousands of years later)

When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Roman, Jew-hating, Bible-hating soldiers fulfilled prophecy AND HAD NO CLUE THEY WERE.

If I was going to write down a profound lie, I wouldn't want to be killed gruesomely for it. I'd renounce all of it, like nah, the soldiers aint really, and Jesus aint really... so yeah, you can remove that sword from my neck.... Ceasar is Lord. which eads me to the heart of all of your questions:

My wildly untrained, knee jerk opinion is that no matter the form that organzied religion takes, it is always, in some way or another, a power grab. A very human, mortal weakness.

Most of the disciples were killed.

ALERT! I don't agree with all the following theology of this site but it gives a historical rundown of what happened to the disciples:

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-die.html

http://www.ichthus.info/Disciples/intro.html

"Many of Jesus disciples died cruel deaths for preaching the gospel"

Power Grab? eesh. nahhhhh, I dont think it was. But think for a moment, isnt the presidency, a place of power. Constantine was no apostle. He was a king. Popes have committed graver sins than declaring Christianity a state religion. We are sinners who need grace, true saints will say. And I'd be with you if any of the disciples, first century saints and writers said: overthrow and take over the world!!! take over nations Christians!!

But you hit it on the head: A very human, mortal weakness is the pursuit of power for pride.

I can take a machete and harvest a field, cut down bananas for my family. Or I can murder with it, be in a gang, and be a killer for territory and power in Crown Heights.

Humans take anything and everything that can be used for good and use it for evil. We're evil indeed. and we don't even recognize that unless there is a wheelchair invented to help along a disabled person. but if provoked i'll take it and run over your foot too with it. LOL. So, are the inventors of the wheelchair evil?

witch-king

The Bible is fun.

Ob ovo, all that begating (or begatting); and all that "knowing" ("Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain...Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch"), so Victorian, so Enlightened; and the non-monogamous couplings ("Lamech took two wives", but did he truly "know" them both?); the drunken nakedness of Noah; or the tale that is almost written for reality TV, fitted out with slavery, adultery, surrogacy, illegitimacy -- a mash up of "Gone with the Wind" and "Wife Swap"

"Now Sarai, Abram's wife, bore him no children. She had an Egyptian slave-girl whose name was Hagar, and Sarai said to Abram, 'You see that the LORD has prevented me from bearing children; go into my slave-girl; it may be that I shall obtain children by her."

"Go into her indeed!," his consent sealed by an arched eyebrow.

No, neither THAT nor the collective adult circumcision: "This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised."

My covenant for a foreskin!

Abraham, a "player" of biblical proportions, doesn't set off my immorality meter either.

No, I am disturbed by the genocide in Genesis, the firebombing of Sodom and Gomorrah; the honor killing that resulted from the defiling of Dinah

"On the third day, when they were still in pain (as a result of another collective wave of circumcision), two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and came against the city unawares, and killed all the males...And the other sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and plundered the city...They took flocks and their herds, their donkeys, and whatever was in the city and in the field. All their wealth, all their little ones and their wives, all that was in the houses, they captured and made their prey."

-- God, not the little ones! --

for which Jacob received a blessing from God.

Or the fate of poor Onan: "he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also." A one off for a one off, so to speak.

Golf clap

whynot_31

HCH wrote: no other book of "religion" self-proclaims it's inerrancy.

Combined with some of the crazy and contradictory stuff in it, this claim is one of the reasons I leave it shut.

Meanwhile, these two very "on topic" local plays are looking like a good use of my time and money:

http://theaterforthenewcity.net/infallibility.htm

even I can afford $18!

...because those who claim to represent christianity, islam, hinduism, judaism etc have such wildly different interpretations of what "it" means, perhaps people should decide whether or not they want to be part of specific religion largely based on the nature of their individual congregation or group.

I have a hard time viewing members of any religion as actually subscribing to any uniform code of beliefs. As a result of everyone claiming to be the "true" believers, hasn't the idea of religion been outdated?

Cafeteria catholics?

Cafeteria jews?

cafeteria islam?

etc.