Schools

whynot_31

ah, but are DOE finances always the driving force?

I'm thinking of situations in which you have a "diverse" district, but the PTA has been taken over by the parents of children headed to private colleges.

In that situation, the PTA controls a lot of influence and the the principal is tempted to give them what they want in exchange for their donations and "peace".

xlizellx

The give them what they want meaning less special education students?

whynot_31

They give them classes that are not officially Special Ed, but serve the same purpose.

For example, all of the kids who act up have to go to Ms Clara's class for the rest of the year. The parents of the kids in Ms. Clara's class don't effectively complain, because they tend to be single moms, poorer, work long hours, have less knowledge of their rights, etc

There is no need to create those pesky IEPs, there is no need to pay for more staffing...The PTA is delighted and makes a large donation to the school.

xlizellx

Aha, I see what you're saying. Tends to happen often in poorer schools already (Looking at you, District 18!).That's harder to solve with others are less hopeful about the state of education than I am. I guess the hope is that the teachers can sell a co-taught or integrated classroom setting to parents. No teacher wants to be Ms. Clara either.

xlizellx

My reply seems to have disappeared.Basically, to re-reply:Already happens in certain areas (here's looking at you, district 18!)But my hope is that teachers stand up against it. Or their union does. No teacher wants to be Ms. Clara either.

whynot_31

When/if people complain, I've heard the class (i.e. segregation) justified under diversity grounds.

As in "Ms. Clara is able to connect with kids who are different learners in a way that the other teachers are not."

In my experience, Ms. Clara is usually perceived to be of the same race as her students, and is often a new teacher.

...yes, Ms. Clara is screwed. She often leaves the field, in part, because she is expected to be able to more effectively work with students than her peers. [Unintended consequence: Attempt to diversify teaching field thwarted]

xlizellx

True. We hit 5 years and half of us have quit.But our contract does state that if a case can be made that there is a "hard" class and an "easy" class, it is to alternate every other year.All this said, principals have to be on board too. And with how scared most are of parents, that may be the biggest hurdle of it all.

whynot_31

If the class remains intact, yet the teachers change, the goal of segregation remains intact.Yes, the INVOLVED and INTIMIDATING parents are in favor of these special classes. They are the ones the principals will appease.

homeowner

There are a ton of "special ed" kids in private schools. They, however, tend to be undiagnosed or kids who's parents are aware of their disabilitites and then get them onto medication but don't get an official diagnostic done. Certain private schools will push parents to get the analysis done to allow for additional support in the way of extra test taking time, etc. There are tons of private school kids being medicated from middle school through college in NYC and the schools are starting to put in place support mechanisms to deal with these kids. I think Xlizellx does point out one what should be an immediate change for both elementary and middle school selection. Kids should be permitted to attend any school in the zone based on seat availability. This would give parents more options and make it easier to get kids to stay in their home district. I think that the abolishment of private schools isn't going to make things better, simply because private school parents are already paying taxes to support local schools. So if the current pot of money for schools is X and it supports Y number of kids the year that private schools get phased out you'll have X dollars supporting Y+100,000 kids. Bringing those kids in doesn't bring in any private school revenue, nor would it allow the state to capture the endowments or operating funds for those schools. I've seen proposals where private school assets would be taken over but that simply adds additional expense to the Dept of Ed. for buildings and maintenance.

nothinlikeabklyngirl

How one school in District 13 is trying to preserve integration between low-income and more affluent students: http://ny.chalkbeat.org/2014/02/12/in-brooklyns-district-13-a-task-force-aims-to-engineer-socioeconomic-integration/

whynot_31

Meanwhile, The Atlantic ran a piece that advocates grouping students based on ability:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/lets-go-back-to-grouping-students-by-ability/274362/

As it is measured by the school system, "ability" is often positively correlated to income.

whynot_31

(error)

homeowner

http://nypost.com/2014/02/23/students-defend-murry-bergtraum-hs-in-error-filled-letters/

This is why parents choose to opt out of the public school system.

mugofmead111

http://nypost.com/2014/02/23/students-defend-murry-bergtraum-hs-in-error-filled-letters/

This is why parents choose to opt out of the public school system.

That's one school and that's on the high school level. 

What are similar problems that a student may encounter in the lower grade levels?

homeowner

Well, there's this...

http://nypost.com/2014/01/12/no-space-no-books-no-leader-no-clue-at-citys-worst-elementary/

Please understand that I'm not by any stretch saying that every public school is as bad as these two. But these are the schools that serve those students whose parents aren't actively involved in the system through PTAs, special fundraising, advocating at the Department level, and involving local politicians. In other words this is what the bottom quartile (approx. 425 schools) of all schools in NYC looks like. And these are schools that your kid could end up end because there isn't a seat in your school of choice, a program has been abolished, zones are redrawn, or you happen to live in a place where most of the schools in the district are low performers.

whynot_31

Yes, the fear of one's child being placed in such a school is often enough for a parent to pursue an alternative that they perceive as less risky.

In such situations, parents feel absolutely powerless to change their zoned school, so they may flee.

...or, at least make a youtube video like the guy above did.

mugofmead111

And these are schools that your kid could end up end because there isn't a seat in your school of choice, a program has been abolished, zones are redrawn, or you happen to live in a place where most of the schools in the district are low performers.

Your original example cited an example on the high school level and students have more choices available to them aside from the zoned schools by the time a student gets to that point. 

Yet, I can see why some would want to abandon what some perceive to be a sinking ship.

homeowner

Yes, there are significantly more choices on the high school level. Yet every year there are thousands of students who get none of their 10 choices and end up in supplementary round. Those kids end up with a lot fewer options to choose from, often in new untested schools or programs or those schools that are the worst performers.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/no-matches-for-some-students-on-high-school-decision-day/

xlizellx

Well, there's this...

http://nypost.com/2014/01/12/no-space-no-books-no-leader-no-clue-at-citys-worst-elementary/

Please understand that I'm not by any stretch saying that every public school is as bad as these two. But these are the schools that serve those students whose parents aren't actively involved in the system through PTAs, special fundraising, advocating at the Department level, and involving local politicians. In other words this is what the bottom quartile (approx. 425 schools) of all schools in NYC looks like. And these are schools that your kid could end up end because there isn't a seat in your school of choice, a program has been abolished, zones are redrawn, or you happen to live in a place where most of the schools in the district are low performers.

That's my point, though.  You say "my kids deserves better" and you put them into some other school -- even though your kid has capable parents who will be actively involved in the system through all of the means you listed.  Those kids (who didn't get to chose their parents) will never be brought upwards if the kids with involved parents never attend their school.  It just seems selfish to me to only think of your individual kid and not kids at large.  Unless your child is going to be physically harmed at school, there is no way it's so bad you can't be the help those educators and those other kids need while your own child still gets an education.

whynot_31

xlizellx-

In general, parents want their children to have better lives then they themselves had.

In life, a parent wants their child to be able to compete [for high school admission, for college admission, and eventually for jobs] against kids who went to much better schools and had wealthier, more fortunate parents.

As a result, parents do not perceive there being time for their kids to help other kids and "the school system" to the extent you describe.

The job of a parent is to give their kids the best life they can.

homeowner

I help by volunteering my time to mentor kids at two public schools who may be among the group of kids who got crappy parents in the parent lottery. I'm hiring two of those kids this summer to work as (paid) interns at my job which will give them the incentive to continue to do well in school, a place to go every day while they are not in school, and a real job they can put on a resume. I'm working with their schools to help them learn how to interview for a job and what it means to take part in a competitive process where they need to sell themselves. I do this, because I do believe that I have some responsibility to the greater community at large.

However, I also recognize that my kids will travel through life with the rest of the world having pre-conceived notions about their intelligence, their intent, their backgrounds and upbringing. If recent events in Florida have taught them anything, its that their very lives may be at stake because someone views them as threats. As such it is my responsibility as a parent to arm them with the best tools to defend themselves. Part of that is providing them the best education I can. My belief is that they will be better educated in a system where there is a clear exchange of services for pay, and a clear understanding by the people receiving the pay of the expectiation I have regarding the services I am receiving. I'm not saying that you don't get quality teaching in a "free" system, just that there isn't the same level of accountability to me as a consumer. I am willing to sacrifice, to forgo certain luxuries, to live in a smaller home, not drive a new car so I can provide them with greater opportunities and expose them to many things. They understand that their education is not a right, but comes at some expense and that their responsibility is to not squander it or take it for granted. i'm teaching them the importance of philanthropy and the need to provide financial support to those insitutions they value. At the same time, they still remain grounded to the community that they live in through church, sports, activities and friendships with kids whose parents have opted not to make the same decision.

I feel very comfortable with the decisions I've made because I know I'm still doing more than most people when it comes to supporting schools.

xlizellx

I help by volunteering my time to mentor kids at two public schools who may be among the group of kids who got crappy parents in the parent lottery. I'm hiring two of those kids this summer to work as (paid) interns at my job which will give them the incentive to continue to do well in school, a place to go every day while they are not in school, and a real job they can put on a resume. I'm working with their schools to help them learn how to interview for a job and what it means to take part in a competitive process where they need to sell themselves. I do this, because I do believe that I have some responsibility to the greater community at large. - 

That's awesome.  I see what you're saying, Whynot, about parents and how they view their roles.  I guess I'm glad that wasn't how my parents saw their roles - and why I didn't go to a great school growing up, but I always had my parents helping out as much as possible, volunteering and pestering other parents to do the same, and then supplying me with extracurriculars and summer activities that expanded my learning in ways that my school could not provide.  My parents both are still incredibly active in the local public schools, especially my mom, even though both of their kids have grown up and left town.  I appreciate that they saw us as citizens before students and while they loved us very very much we weren't more special or important than any other kid.

heightsmom

Selfish? Damn straight!

As a teacher, I agree with xlizellx. I've been a teacher for 12 years, and there was a time during which I truly believed that parents had a social obligation to send their child to their local school, improving from the inside.

Now, as a parent I simply want my child to have the best education possible, and that will, sadly, not be at my zoned elementary school. I've spent a great deal of time observing students exiting the school building, and the violence, abhorrent language, and total lack of supervision at dismissal tell me a lot about the culture of the school.

I do want to change education. That is why I have dedicated my career to public education. I will not make a difference at the expense of my child's well-being.

whynot_31

xlizellx-

Your parents seem to have believed that you would be successful DESPITE, not going to the best school they could afford.

Mine believed this too.

In my case, they believed that as a result the parenting they provided, my siblings and I could overcome the pressures presented by those who were less fortunate. 

However, when your family is not as strong, and the less fortunate are "more powerful" than they were in our school district, that equation changes.

For example, we moved a lot as a result of my dad being in the Marines, and when we lived somewhere where the local schools sucked we were sent to Catholic school. 

 Otherwise, we attended the best public school we could by living in the right district or making quick friends with the person in the neighboring district who, um, verified addresses. 

 Involved NYC families try their best to exercise similar creativity.

Always helps to know someone at the DOE who can pull a few strings.

clayfilms

this is an awesome conversation. i just wanted to say that. carry on yall. 

crownheightster

Heightsmom, what is your zoned elementary school? I am curious b/c my kid will be ready for school in a few years and we are zoned for PS 138. In a few years, of course, the conversation could be totally different if enough of the "new" Crown Heights residents start sending their kids to the local zoned school and the schools become more diverse then they are currently.

whynot_31

I perceive it as being very likely that that local schools will be radically different 6 years from now than they are currently.

I look to PS 9 (located in Prospect Heights on Underhill, near Dean) as evidence. At first only a few "new residents" sent their children there. Then, the tipping point was achieved.

whynot_31

This video entitled "Teachers' message to parents: We don't suck you suck", clearly belongs on this thread:

http://www.reshareable.tv/teachers-message-to-parents-we-dont-suck-you-suck.html

whynot_31

@xlizellx this video seems to make your points very well:

whynot_31