Operation Impact to Return to Crown Heights
  • From the NYTimes:

    Of the 76 police precincts in New York, there were 6 that showed slight increases in overall crime, officials said. Of those, four were in Brooklyn — the 73rd, 77th, 79th and 84th Precincts; one in Queens, the 101st Precinct; and one on Staten Island, the 122nd Precinct.

    He said that the Operation Impact program was being changed: Rather than moving the roughly 900 officers currently in the program to precinct assignments — and replacing them with two-thirds of the recruits graduating from the Police Academy on Thursday — the existing officers will remain in the program and be joined by all 914 recruits, who will go to existing zones or to others being newly configured.

    Mr. Kelly said that about one-third of the 1,800 officers in the program would be sent to central Brooklyn precincts: the 70th, 71st, 73rd, 75th, 77th and 79th. Also, 45 officers will be assigned to northern Brooklyn as Impact Response Team officers, a flexible component within Operation Impact where the borough commander has the option of using the officers as he sees fit.

    In the Bronx, the 44th, 46th and 52nd Precincts will get Operation Impact officers. In northern Manhattan, the 32nd Precinct in Harlem will get them. In southern Manhattan, the Midtown North and Midtown South Precincts will get Operation Impact officers. In Queens, the 103rd, 110th and 115th Precincts will get additional officers in the program.

    In addition, a housing police unit in Brooklyn will get an Impact Response Team. Police in the transit system will get a similar team of officers, known as an Impact Task Force. Staten Island will also get more overtime tours for the program.

    Mr. Kelly said that if he had to identify one program “that has been the prime reason why crime has gone down in this city, at least in this administration, it has been Operation Impact.”

    Full article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/nyregion/27crime.html
  • Well, that's good news. It's bad that recruiting is down because Bloomberg won't pay cops enough, but it seems that Kelly is at least making good use of scarce resources.
  • This is great news any way you look at it. Hurray for foot patrols.

    My sense is that this is an example of Bloomberg calling the NYPD's bluff. When asked why crime is up in Crown Hts, the police say that there is not enough manpower. Now there will be and we'll see if manpower was the issue. Let's hope it works.
  • i just hope this doesn't make the neighborhood lose its original flavor. if people can't handle the crime and aren't tough enough to live here, they should leave.

    :wink:
  • We think this is great news and thank everyone for participating in the letter writing campaign
  • CrownHeightsCoalition wrote: We think this is great news and thank everyone for participating in the letter writing campaign


    Thank you for organizing it and keeping us informed!
  • Great job Nina.
  • The reality is that most of you won't be benefitting from the new Cops. The IMPACT ZONE is from Nostrand ave- to Franklin ave and from Eastern Parkway to Pacific st. The rest of you probably won't be seeing an added police presence especially if you're in the WEST end of the 77.
  • HEY!!
    What about your New Years resolution to be less negative :evil:
  • That wasn't negative boo! That was just factual info, I'm glad the 77 is getting more Cops, but the Impact program is very clearly defined. These new Police Officers are only to Patrol the Impact Zone.
  • Well, from what I understand, the crime spike is happening mostly in the Crow Hill district anyway, so it seems that the cops are going where they are needed most.
  • I'm also happy to hear about getting impact program back. I am in the zone

    However, on the flip side, keep in mind that the IMPACT foot patrol officers have a lot of time on their hands as they walk around and as a direct result they write an awful lot of parking tickets.

    Last time IMPACT was in the area my business got 5 parking tickets in a two month period. My normal average in this area is none.
  • wirenut wrote: However, on the flip side, keep in mind that the IMPACT foot patrol officers have a lot of time on their hands as they walk around and as a direct result they write an awful lot of parking tickets.

    Last time IMPACT was in the area my business got 5 parking tickets in a two month period. My normal average in this area is none.


    Maybe you should learn how to follow the rules.
  • ParadeRest wrote: Maybe you should learn how to follow the rules.

    Maybe if you got a ticket every time you parked on the sidewalk or illegally in a non-emergency situation, you wouldn't be so holier-than-thou.
  • Carnivore wrote: [quote=ParadeRest]Maybe you should learn how to follow the rules.

    Maybe if you got a ticket every time you parked on the sidewalk or illegally in a non-emergency situation, you wouldn't be so holier-than-thou.

    If you know that you're getting tickets maybe that should be a hint. A cop on foot has a "performance goal" just like any other cop. If you know there are extra foot patrols then you should realize there will be more summonses isssued. Just be glad you aren't in Manhattan. That double parking that everybody gets away with on street cleaning days doesn't work in Manhattan. Neither does parking on a hydrant to go into a funeral home or church. Don't even think about parking in a bus stop in Manhattan either.
  • Upon moving here from Queens I could not believe that we were allowed to double park on alternate side street parking days. I live near Kingston and Dean and I'm still hoping we get some increased foot patrol and on another note some better shops.
  • Carnivore wrote: [quote=ParadeRest]Maybe you should learn how to follow the rules.

    Maybe if you got a ticket every time you parked on the sidewalk or illegally in a non-emergency situation, you wouldn't be so holier-than-thou.

    It's interesting how different things loook from the other side of the "blue line". Cops apparently feel that their special line of work entitles them to break the laws that the rest of us must conform to. The result is private cars owned by cops parked all over place, on sidewalks, in crosswalks, in tow away zones, you name it. If only cops could see how much this behavior erodes the average citizen's respect for the law in general and cops in specific.....
  • Do you think the Law is eroded when people are alllowed to Double Park in front of their Church whens theirs a service?(Dean st-6th-Carlton), (St johns Plc-Utica- Schenectady ave) Do you think alternate side of the street cleaning affords people to legally double park?(everywhere) Do you think School Teachers should be allowed to park inside of the School yards where they work?(Sterling Plc-Albany ave)(schenectady-Lincoln pl) Should Postal Employees and Firemen be allowed to park on the sidewalk? (post office St Johns Pl -Troy ave)(firehouse Opp 500 st johns pl) Should Drug store owners be allowed to park and drive on the sidewalk in front of their stores? (Bedford ave-Eastern pkwy) Should people be allowed to Park in the safety zone (front of 35 Eastern Pkwy) Should Parks Dept Employees be able to Park their private vehicles in Parks? (Brower Park) Should recruiters for the military be allowed to park in No Standing Zones? (Eastern pkwy-Utica ave) Should the supervisor for MTA be allowed to park on the Median of Eastern Pkwy?(Eastern pkwy-Utica) The point is, and I can go on and on and on............Theres too many cars in the City and too little places for them. Some people abuse their priveledges, while others never do. If a War is to be started, then everyone is fair game!
  • King without a crown wrote: Do you think the Law is eroded when people are alllowed to Double Park in front of their Church whens theirs a service?(Dean st-6th-Carlton), (St johns Plc-Utica- Schenectady ave) Do you think alternate side of the street cleaning affords people to legally double park?(everywhere) Do you think School Teachers should be allowed to park inside of the School yards where they work?(Sterling Plc-Albany ave)(schenectady-Lincoln pl) Should Postal Employees and Firemen be allowed to park on the sidewalk? (post office St Johns Pl -Troy ave)(firehouse Opp 500 st johns pl) Should Drug store owners be allowed to park and drive on the sidewalk in front of their stores? (Bedford ave-Eastern pkwy) Should people be allowed to Park in the safety zone (front of 35 Eastern Pkwy) Should Parks Dept Employees be able to Park their private vehicles in Parks? (Brower Park) Should recruiters for the military be allowed to park in No Standing Zones? (Eastern pkwy-Utica ave) Should the supervisor for MTA be allowed to park on the Median of Eastern Pkwy?(Eastern pkwy-Utica) The point is, and I can go on and on and on............Theres too many cars in the City and too little places for them. Some people abuse their privileges, while others never do. If a War is to be started, then everyone is fair game!


    No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and NO! Park legally or get a ticket.

    Cops too.

    If they're responding to an emergency, they should be able to park wherever they need to. But if they're parking their private car, they should have to look for a spot like everyone else. Cop cars on the sidewalk or in front of a hydrant, or blocking a crosswalk, or double-parked, or whatever are no less of a hazard or inconvenience than any other car. It's not a matter of a "war." If there's no emergency, it's just laziness and entitlement, and shows total disrespect toward the community these officers are supposed to be protecting.
  • It's nice to say just "follow the rules" of parking. The reality is that it is very difficult to conduct busy NYC life styles and/or business and follow ALL parking rules 100% of the time. If you're retired and you have an hour to kill to find a legal spot that's great, but what do the rest of us do?

    All I was getting at is that people of the community can prevent getting "extra" tickets if they become aware the IMPACT program is starting by paying more attention to how they park.

    Not for nothing some of these parking rules are rediculous:
    1>defective equipment ie: cracked mirror. How is that a parking problem? Catch the person with a cracked mirror while they are actually driving.
    2>license plate frames: you are not legally allowed to have a license plate frame, ever. How is that a parking problem?
    3>you are allowed to park you own PASSENGER vehicle across your own driveway, however, you are not allowed to park your own COMMERCIAL vehicle across your own driveway.
    4>advertising on a commercial vehicle is not allowed unless it is advertising the business you are in. Yet passenger vehicles can have advertising on them.
    5>you can not park within 15 ft of a hydrant even if you are across the street from it (on very narrow streets like in Brooklyn Heights this is a problem for trucks)

    I understand the message of obeying rules. It is, I hope, how we teach our children. But why do we have some crazy rules.

    And while I'm at it, when is the Police Dept (or someone else) going to start doing something about all these cars with out-of-state plates that are cheating on their auto insurance. They are commiting felony insurance fraud, but I can't legally park my own Brooklyn truck across my own Brooklyn driveway, even though I pay about $4,000.00 a year per truck for insurance.
  • It must have started already. I saw four of the new rookies today.
  • You are right, Operation Impact is in full affect. Hopefully the 20-40 footposts throughout the Impact Zone will help keep Crime down atleast in that area.
  • wirenut wrote: It's nice to say just "follow the rules" of parking. The reality is that it is very difficult to conduct busy NYC life styles and/or business and follow ALL parking rules 100% of the time. If you're retired and you have an hour to kill to find a legal spot that's great, but what do the rest of us do?


    ....Not use a car in the first place?
  • queencalliygos wrote: ....Not use a car in the first place?


    I never tried it before but when the weather gets warmer I will try to do one of my jobs using a bicycle. Transporting my 500 pounds of tools and supplies by bicycle will be interesting (not to mention how to lock it up.)
  • wirenut wrote: [quote=queencalliygos]....Not use a car in the first place?


    I never tried it before but when the weather gets warmer I will try to do one of my jobs using a bicycle. Transporting my 500 pounds of tools and supplies by bicycle will be interesting (not to mention how to lock it up.)

    You might find Jared Diamond's op ed piece in the NY Times today interesting. He notes that the 1 billion people living in developed countries use on average 32 times as many resources as the 5.5 billion living in undeveloped countries. While he notes demographers are expecting world popuation to exceed 10 billion by mid-century, the real problem is what happens when those undeveloped 5.5 billion people start to live like Americans. It would be like having 8.5 billion new Americans! From world resource depletion perspective, it would be like having 272 billion people on the planet (32 x 8.5 billion) plus the 1.5 billion in the already developed world. Do you think that's going to work?

    Now what was that you said about not being able to ride a bike? Do you think you'll have any alternative in a few years? :)
  • King without a crown wrote: Do you think the Law is eroded when people are alllowed to Double Park in front of their Church whens theirs a service?(Dean st-6th-Carlton), (St johns Plc-Utica- Schenectady ave) Do you think alternate side of the street cleaning affords people to legally double park?(everywhere) Do you think School Teachers should be allowed to park inside of the School yards where they work?(Sterling Plc-Albany ave)(schenectady-Lincoln pl) Should Postal Employees and Firemen be allowed to park on the sidewalk? (post office St Johns Pl -Troy ave)(firehouse Opp 500 st johns pl) Should Drug store owners be allowed to park and drive on the sidewalk in front of their stores? (Bedford ave-Eastern pkwy) Should people be allowed to Park in the safety zone (front of 35 Eastern Pkwy) Should Parks Dept Employees be able to Park their private vehicles in Parks? (Brower Park) Should recruiters for the military be allowed to park in No Standing Zones? (Eastern pkwy-Utica ave) Should the supervisor for MTA be allowed to park on the Median of Eastern Pkwy?(Eastern pkwy-Utica) The point is, and I can go on and on and on............Theres too many cars in the City and too little places for them. Some people abuse their priveledges, while others never do. If a War is to be started, then everyone is fair game!


    Like Carnivore sez, it would be cool if they all obeyed the law. But particularly cops should, because they're the ones sworn to uphold the law, not flagrantly violate it!
  • To return to the original topic:

    I'm confused about the way this was worded. Are most of the new police in the area going to be rookies, as in this is their first assignment? That seems like it could have some possible negative consequences...
  • Brand spankin new out of the Academy, graduated Dec 27.
  • 1055 Dean wrote: To return to the original topic:

    I'm confused about the way this was worded. Are most of the new police in the area going to be rookies, as in this is their first assignment? That seems like it could have some possible negative consequences...


    They have to start somewhere.
  • Yeah, let's throw them in the deep end of the pool!
  • According to a New York Times article, they are being paired with officers alreayd in the program: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/nyregion/27crime.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
  • wirenut wrote: [quote=queencalliygos]....Not use a car in the first place?


    I never tried it before but when the weather gets warmer I will try to do one of my jobs using a bicycle. Transporting my 500 pounds of tools and supplies by bicycle will be interesting (not to mention how to lock it up.)

    ...ah. My apologies, and you actually bring up a very good point; I was thinking more of the people for whom using a car isn't quite as essential (i.e., the business executives who take a car ten blocks to work and back, the bridge-and-tunnel types who drive into the city rather than using trains, buses and subways) rather than a case such as yours, where you're carrying your own equipment around for your work.

    It does strike me, though, that if people who didn't really NEED to use their cars didn't, then it would make parking easier for those who DID need to, and everyone would win.
  • Anonymous wrote: According to a New York Times article, they are being paired with officers alreayd in the program: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/nyregion/27crime.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


    The 77 didn't already have a program. Up until last week there were no officers assigned to Field Training or Impact in the 77. Even if there were some cops in Field Training or Impact it wouldn't be much guidance for the new class. The cop with 6 months on the street (writing as many summonses as possible)is supposed to lead somebody who just graduated. It's like the blind leading the blind. This whole notion of pairing up the rookies with senior officers is just an urban legend.
  • I've seen a few of the new cops so far and I have to give them their props. They took on a job with insufficient pay, where the simple act of putting on the uniform makes them a target of hate. I respect them for deciding to do what they do, I know I couldn't do it.
  • Lets all welcome our new Cops,let them know they are appreciated. Simply having a clean place to use the bathroom on patrol means alot to these guys and girls. Don't be afraid to talk to them, let them know whats going on in the "Hood", point out the good guys and point out the bad. They really don't have much guidance, and it's the Communities job as much as the Police Dept. to educate and guide them towards being the Police Officers we a ALL want them to be.
  • excellent point
  • King without a crown wrote: Lets all welcome our new Cops,let them know they are appreciated. Simply having a clean place to use the bathroom on patrol means alot to these guys and girls. Don't be afraid to talk to them, let them know whats going on in the "Hood", point out the good guys and point out the bad. They really don't have much guidance, and it's the Communities job as much as the Police Dept. to educate and guide them towards being the Police Officers we a ALL want them to be.


    That's good to know, I was hesitant to say anything to them though most of them have been friendly. I didn't want to overstep my bounds. Thanks Kwac!
  • King without a crown wrote: Lets all welcome our new Cops,let them know they are appreciated. Simply having a clean place to use the bathroom on patrol means alot to these guys and girls. Don't be afraid to talk to them, let them know whats going on in the "Hood", point out the good guys and point out the bad. They really don't have much guidance, and it's the Communities job as much as the Police Dept. to educate and guide them towards being the Police Officers we a ALL want them to be.


    Do you mean allow them into our homes to use our bathrooms? I've never heard of or seen this? Or were you just addressing business owners?
  • haha, boogieknight, i was wondering the same thing. am i supposed to be letting these guys drop a deuce in my bathroom?
  • Maybe a silly question, but how can one identify the newbies?
  • They are the cops walking around the neighborhood with looks of wide-eyed amazement.
  • mr. met wrote: haha, boogieknight, i was wondering the same thing. am i supposed to be letting these guys drop a deuce in my bathroom?

    Better put a lock on your tank. Unless you want to leave yourself vulnerable to an upper decking. :lol:
  • mr. met wrote: haha, boogieknight, i was wondering the same thing. am i supposed to be letting these guys drop a deuce in my bathroom?

    LOL! a steady diet of doughnuts and coffee can produce the most unpleasant deuces known to man (and woman)!
  • "Lets all welcome our new Cops,let them know they are appreciated. Simply having a clean place to use the bathroom on patrol means alot to these guys and girls. Don't be afraid to talk to them, let them know whats going on in the "Hood", point out the good guys and point out the bad. They really don't have much guidance, and it's the Communities job as much as the Police Dept. to educate and guide them towards being the Police Officers we a ALL want them to be."

    I have to admit, if we want these wet-behind-the-ears types to understand the neighborhood in which they will be working, KWAC is right. Lord knows most don't have any idea of what life is like outside of L.I. or Staten Island or the other non-urban places these young guys and ladies live. But there's no way I'm letting some flatfoot use my bathroom! They're on their own on that one.
  • i've definitely noticed a lot more cops on foot on franklin. nice to see. any word on how effective theyve been so far, or is it too soon? have they seen a lot of action? i guess these questions are directed mostly towards KWAC.
  • mr. met wrote: i've definitely noticed a lot more cops on foot on franklin. nice to see. any word on how effective theyve been so far, or is it too soon? have they seen a lot of action? i guess these questions are directed mostly towards KWAC.

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs077pct.pdf
  • The majority of the Cops are not from long Island, nor Staten Island, so lets not make blanket generalizations. As for their efficacy on on reducing Crime, it's still too early to tell. However,I'm sure it's a little quiter in the Impact Zone, but these new Officers need guidance, being a good cop doesnt happen overnight. As for them dropping deuces in your nice clean bathrooms, I think you needn't worry. Due to their low income, these guys barely poop, due to insufficient nourishment. :roll:
  • in the past i have experienced the "wet behind the ears" syndrome with newly posted cops on franklin
    but honestly, that's not what i am seeing now
    what i do see is real foot patrol including down the side streets
    i'm saying hello and getting a response back and that hasn't always happened

    it's been one week
    i say, so far, so good
    & welcome
  • King without a crown wrote: As for them dropping deuces in your nice clean bathrooms, I think you needn't worry. Due to their low income, these guys barely poop, due to insufficient nourishment. :roll:

    Funny. Those new guys are making $32,700, which I agree makes them underpaid. I suspect they can eat though.
  • hmmm...i thought new cops made 26k.

    $32,700 isn't bad at all.
  • I eat fairly well and all the new cops I've seen are chubbier than I am. These people aren't starving. They're just underpaid.

    That said, there were a whole bunch of them on Nostrand on Monday and I think the effect has been positive so far. It seems they are really trying to learn about the neighborhood they are patrolling and trying to become part of the community. It seems that there is a real effort to return to the days of Officer Tom yore when people knew their local beat cop.

    So far so good! Thumbs up! :D
  • mr. met wrote: hmmm...i thought new cops made 26k.

    $32,700 isn't bad at all.

    Your first figure is for the six months in the academy.

    Police Academy (first six months): $25,100 (Annualized)
    Upon completion of six months: $32,700
    Upon completion of 1 ½ years: $34,000
    Upon completion of 2 ½ years: $38,000
    Upon completion of 3 ½ years: $41,500
    Upon completion of 4 ½ years: $44,100
    Upon completion of 5 ½ years: $59,588

    * These salaries do not include overtime earnings, night-shift differential, holiday pay and uniform allowance.

    http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/salary.html
  • thanks, daver.

    looks like you can make a pretty decent living as a copper.
  • The real money for cops comes on the back end when they retire:

    50% of roughly the last three years averaged together -Partially TAX FREE- after just 20 years on the job for as long as you can stay alive in retirement. That's a regular pension not a disability pension which is more money and I think fully tax free.

    If you join young, 21, and quit at 41, and live till you are 80-something (remember they also maintain your health benefits when you retire to help you live longer)

    you will be collecting retirement pay for 40 + years

    Not too shabby

    If some of the details are off, excuse me, but I think that's a close summary.
  • wirenut wrote: The real money for cops comes on the back end when they retire:

    50% of roughly the last three years averaged together -Partially TAX FREE- after just 20 years on the job for as long as you can stay alive in retirement. That's a regular pension not a disability pension which is more money and I think fully tax free.

    If you join young, 21, and quit at 41, and live till you are 80-something (remember they also maintain your health benefits when you retire to help you live longer)

    you will be collecting retirement pay for 40 + years

    Not too shabby

    If some of the details are off, excuse me, but I think that's a close summary.

    Not only that, but they often do tons of extra overtime their last few years, which is included in the pay their pensions are based on.
    Also, because cops can retire so early, they often get another city job and work until a normal retirement age to collect 2 pensions!
    So the starting pay is low, but if they hang in there, they can do alright.
  • Wow with all those great benefits its amazing that the City can't hire enough Police Officers. I don't think any other City Agency has a recruiting problem either.
  • I'm curious as to how much an officer actually sees per paycheck, once the taxes are gone. I have a friend who's been on the force for 9 years, and I think that after taxes he's lucky to take home 500- 600 bucks a week. He lives in a rent controlled apartment, but still. He's lucky and has a position that doesn't often put him on the street and in the way of danger, but imagine putting your life on the line for such chump change. And, as casepeople pointed out earlier, just wearing the uniform seems to make him a target. So, no, it's not the most underpaid job in the world, but it still takes an enormous sense of self-sacrifice to take the job and to make it to retirement.
    Given the fact that we've given Ratner an astronomical tax break on his new development, not mention selling him the railyards for well below the highest big, I don't think raising the salaries of city workers is such a bad idea. Especially with the demand that the Ratner thing will create. How many traffic cops will it take to manage the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic? Shudder to think.
  • Lucille wrote: I'm curious as to how much an officer actually sees per paycheck, once the taxes are gone. I have a friend who's been on the force for 9 years, and I think that after taxes he's lucky to take home 500- 600 bucks a week.

    I'm pretty certain that officers don't have to pay any special income taxes that the rest of us don't, but if they do then I would certainly vote to abolish that. Otherwise, I don't see this as being a factor. Everyone has to pay taxes. If you are proposing that we eliminate income taxes for officers, then my gut reaction is that I would be against it. I don't like creating loopholes in taxes for anyone, and if we need to raise the level of their take home pay, I would prefer to see it done by a genuine raise.

    Additionally, I find your figure of $500-600/week for a nine year veteran to be unlikely. They don't have to pay their health care, he must have something else being taken out of his check. Some benefits:
    # 20 Paid vacation days your first year
    # 27 Paid vacation days after 5 years of service
    # Unlimited sick leave with full pay
    # A choice of paid medical programs
    # Prescription, dental, and eye glass coverage


    Here is some further info from the website:
    When including base salary, average overtime and night shift differential, holiday pay, and uniform allowance, a Police Officer earns over $35,000, on average, in the first year; $45,000, on average, in the second year; $77,000, on average, after 6 years.

    They quote $77k for six years, I would assume the at nine years they would be making more, but I'll just use the six year figure. For $500-600/wk I will use $550, which equals $28,600 yearly take home. Subtract that from $77k and you get $48,400 per year in payroll taxes, or about 63%. We all know that taxes in NYC are out of sight, but they aren't _that_ high.
  • There is only one health plan that is no cost, the rest require officer contributions. The pension is also partially funded by the officer's own contributions. The prescription, dental and eyeglass benefits are all recieved from the PBA (funded by dues) and are not paid for by the city.

    I would like to know what the average overtime is. There are plenty of police officers who do the maximum amount of overtime every month. What's average? 5 hours? 10 hours? 45 hours? The overtime capped was lifted a few months ago and there were officers making 60 hours a month. These are the officers that arrest everybody and their mother for crack pipes or shopping carts. The city has an interesting way of using statistics.

    Using that $77,000 figure for a moment...1/2 it and get $33,500. Deduct takes and you're at about 25,000. If an officer retires at 45 this year and he lives for another 30 years to be 75 in the year 2038 he will still be making his $25,000 yearly. In the year 2038 how far will we able to stretch that money. Now, I agree that 45 is very young to retire but it only a fool stays in the NYCPD under the rank of Lt. past 20 years of service. That pension is not guarenteed after 20 years of service should you decide to stay longer. When your wife gets pissed off and puts marihuana in your meatballs because you work too much (it happened recently) you are suddenly wondering why you just gave up the last 23 years of your life with nothing to show for it. No pension, no health insurance, no prospect of getting a decent job again. The city makes cops with over 20 years of service targets.

    So deduct your federal, state, city income taxes, and social security. Deduct the pension contribution, health care contribution and union dues. Deduct the extra contribution into the pension and 457 plan(because $25,000 in the year 2038 will buy you a six pack of Miller Lite). After retirement the co-pays go up and the benefits get reduced (you only get new glasses every two years instead of yearly).
  • Sheesh, I'm all for adequate compensations for law enforcement, but this is the wrong tact to take IMO. Try getting a QUARTER of that in the private sector...

    After 20 years of service, a retired Police Officer will receive:

    * Estimated earnings of $50,783 per year, comprised of 50 % of salary, longevity, night shift differential, overtime and an annual $12,000 payment from a Variable Supplement Fund.

    - A retired Police Officer could receive approximately $1.9 million when retired assuming a life expectancy of 80 years. This figure is based on the age of appointment of 22 and the age of retirement of 42.

    - The dollar amount of $1.9 million is estimated on 2005 salaries and is not adjusted for inflation or for future raises.

    - This dollar amount will be higher for uniformed members that retire above the rank of Police Officer.

    * Full health benefits

    * Annuity Fund and Deferred Compensation Plan, 401K and I.R.A.

    I'm not saying it is all gold and rainbows or anything, but it is WAY better than what non-officers get for sure. Which isn't to say that they don't deserve it, but seriously undermines anything that can be construed as complaining about it.
  • With all the talk of how much comes out of taxes, health insurance perks, etc. Just think about it yourself:

    What would be the minimum you'd be willing to get paid to get shot at on any given night?

    I don't see the profit being so good if you get shot 6 months on the job. Myself - if I had to go out nightly to wander some neighborhoods, I'd say 100k and I MIGHT think about it. Having a wife and kids? I'd have to go higher...
  • Being a cop comes with significant risks, but cops aren't getting shot at every night of the week! Not even here!

    Maybe it was like that in the Bronx in the '70s, but not now.

    The last cop that died in the 77, died in a domestic dispute with her fiance. Female cops (or any female, actually) are more likely to die in domestic disputes than shot by a criminal. There are plenty of cops in the NYPD who never end up shooting their gun. So while it's far from the safest job you could ever have, it's hardly the most dangerous either.


    http://www.forbes.com/2002/09/03/0903worksafe.html
  • yea, don't most cops never even use their guns?
  • lilbangladesh wrote: There are plenty of cops in the NYPD who never end up shooting their gun. So while it's far from the safest job you could ever have, it's hardly the most dangerous either.


    They may not fire their gun often but they do have to arrest criminals who can take a swing at them, chasing down criminals, getting stuck by a needle while frisking, often they are in cars which speed down streets, having to mediate/intervene on domestic disturbances (which is by far the most dangerous), and lets not forget the emotional toll it takes on them. While I may not agree on how some cops handle themselves - it is still a VERY dangerous job. Im glad I do not have to deal with that on a day to day basis in my office.
  • Form wrote: With all the talk of how much comes out of taxes, health insurance perks, etc. Just think about it yourself:

    What would be the minimum you'd be willing to get paid to get shot at on any given night?

    I don't see the profit being so good if you get shot 6 months on the job. Myself - if I had to go out nightly to wander some neighborhoods, I'd say 100k and I MIGHT think about it. Having a wife and kids? I'd have to go higher...

    If you're going to bring the chance of getting shot into it, you need to compare it to working at a convenience store and driving a taxi, both of which have a higher chance of being shot on the job than a cop. Do you think they get paid more?
  • Now compare this to our neighbors Nassau County...

    From the Nassau County PD website...

    -$34,000 Annual Starting Salary
    -$91,737 after 8 years
    -12% Night Differential
    *These salaries do not include overtime earnings, shift differential, holiday pay and uniform allowance.
    -10 paid holidays annually for the first two years increasing to 12 thereafter 18-26 sick days annually
    -Health/Dental/Optical Plan premiums fully paid by Nassau County
    -20 Year Non-Contributory 50% Retirement
    -Tax Deferred Payroll Deducted Savings Plan (457 Deferred Compensation Plan)

    There are a few things that apear to be better in NYC than in Nassau such as sick leave. Yes, NYCPD gives unlimited sick but in exchange for that you are a prisioner in your own home. You are not allowed out without permission from the "Sick Desk" and only for essential reasons such as child care, groceries, drug store trips and doctor visits. NYCPD officers are subject to home visits and calls to their house to verify that they are "in residence". They are also required to visit the Dept. Surgeon. This doctor does not actually provide care but only verifies that you may actually be sick or injured. I'd rather have my 18-26 days annually that can be "banked" until needed.

    The county fully pays health/dental/optical instead of the union be responsible for dental/optical which ultimately comes out of the officer's pocket. The county makes a complete pension contribution as opposed the city's "shared" contribution. NCPD only requires 32 college credits instead of 60. Oh, and that salary isn't too bad!
  • Of course in Nassau County, when someone reported a crime, they might not tolerate a response like "What did you expect? You moved to Nassau County."
  • i dont know...hempstead can get pretty nasty after dark...
  • lilbangladesh wrote: Being a cop comes with significant risks, but cops aren't getting shot at every night of the week! Not even here!


    I wasn't implying that they get shot at every night - just that, as a police officer, any given night you have a greater chance of being shot at then most people. :wink:

    I just wanted to remind people that, even though the pay MIGHT be adequate for a teacher or insurance salesman or whatever - the risk of the job makes the topic different. Much like the memorial thread for the fireman who lost his life last week - these people voluntarily run into a burning building and chase after the person actively firing his gun. This makes us all feel safer that someone else is looking out for our backs.

    The rest of us with other jobs tend to run away.
  • I think Daver and Bangledesh should elope!!!
  • They do get paid more in Nassau
    But as Gulliani pointed out when he was mayor, that's one of the reasons why Nassau almost filed for bankruptcy (note I am not a Gullliani fan)

    Thery spend money like water and the real estate taxes in Nassau reflect that
  • wirenut wrote: They do get paid more in Nassau
    But as Gulliani pointed out when he was mayor, that's one of the reasons why Nassau almost filed for bankruptcy (note I am not a Gullliani fan)

    Thery spend money like water and the real estate taxes in Nassau reflect that

    Nassau also has the highest paid police force in the country. Maybe a comparison to the median officer's salary nationwide would be more appropriate.
  • ha, good point, carnivore
  • Only if you compare the median cost of living nation wide.


    Suffolk County Police

    SALARY
    2007 starting base salary for a Police Officer is $57,811. With five (5) years of service, the base salary is $97,958*. These figures do not include paid benefits.

    BENEFITS
    Full salary and benefits during entire training period.

    Paid family dental, optical and medical plans.

    Longevity pay increments begin after five (5) years of service.

    Fifteen (15) paid vacation days first year of service, increasing to twenty-seven (27) days after five (5) years of service.

    Thirteen (13) sick leave days first year of service, increasing to twenty-six (26) days after the first three (3) years of service. Unused sick leave days are cumulative.
    Three (3) paid personal days first year of service, increasing to five (5) days after three (3) years of service.

    Night shift payments.

    All officers receive thirteen (13) paid holidays.

    All uniforms and equipment are supplied by the Department. A yearly uniform cleaning allotment is provided to each officer.

    Non-contributory pension plan. Members are eligible for retirement after twenty (20) years of service at 50% of three (3) year final average salary. Vested retirement plan after five (5) years.
  • How does the NYPD pay compare to departments in other urban areas with comparable costs of living, like SF?
  • San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea
  • ParadeRest wrote: San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea


    That's a much better argument for raising the pay here than comparing us to Nassau County.
  • Wow, SF is high! Doing a quick search of major cities, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. I am finding that they tend to top out in the $50s. NYC goes higher than that, which I certainly think is justified, it is a more expensive place. I think the big issue here is starting pay. The salary for academy training is laughable, and needs to be raised. I also believe the first few years of salary are too low and should be raised also. What is the current max in the NYPD? Off hand, I would say that the training salary should be somewhere in the mid-to-upper $30s, maybe $35-38k? And that upon completion of training something more like $42-44k+ would be a more reasonable starting point to go up from yearly.

    But that is just my gut feeling based on the current state of things. I would certainly entertain arguments for higher pay. I doubt I would agree with anything lower.
  • Carnivore wrote: [quote=ParadeRest]San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea


    That's a much better argument for raising the pay here than comparing us to Nassau County.

    But when presenting an argument to PERB (binding arbitration) the Taylor Law states that the salaries need to be compared to those of neighboring or surrounding (i forget the exact wording) departments. I don't think that SF is either. There also isn't as much of a problem with NYPD cops leaving to work in SF. There have been many NYPD cops who left for Nassau, Suffolk, MTA, Port Authority, New York State Police and various local police departments in the area. It affects recruitment and retention. A sergeant from the 77 just resigned a few weeks ago becasue he was starting the Nassau County Police Academy.
  • This issue is pretty complicated. This is an article from 2006 regarding the contract negotiations at that time. Its clear that the city has tried to deal with the starting salaries, but for reasons that aren't apparent in the news the parties can't seem to reach any agreement.

    City Offers $10,000 Raise for Police Recruits
    By DIANE CARDWELL
    Published: May 19, 2006

    The Bloomberg administration proposed a raise of roughly $10,000 for new police recruits at a bargaining session with the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association yesterday, according to the terms of an offer provided by administration officials.

    Under the offer, new academy cadets would be paid at an annual rate of $36,123 for the first six months, up from $25,100, and then at a rate of $39,735, up from $32,700. The base salary would tick up each year until hitting $63,309 after five and a half years, up from $59,588.

    The city has been sharply criticized for the relatively low starting pay for police officers, which union officials maintain is below the levels in surrounding areas and even in much smaller cities.

    To compensate for the higher pay, the new officers would receive a less generous package in other areas than those already on the force, including fewer vacation days and paid holidays and less money toward their retirement until they have served five and a half years.

    Officers already on the force who have reached that mark would receive two retroactive raises totaling about 6 percent, which is in line with the raises negotiated by the city with the other uniformed unions, officials said. The contract would cover the period from Aug. 1, 2004, through July 31, 2006, and the pay scale for new recruits would affect those starting July 1.

    The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association did not reject the offer immediately but said it was inadequate considering the risks to officers' lives and too low to solve the department's recruiting problems.

    "Once again the city expects police officers to pay for their own raises while failing to close the gap at all levels of salary between New York City police and surrounding communities, from entry level to critical top pay," said Patrick J. Lynch, the union president. "This offer fails to consider the dangers that we face above and beyond virtually any other municipal employee."

    Negotiations between the city and the police officers' union have been particularly bitter over the last few cycles, going to arbitration for two contracts in a row. In the last settlement, reached in June 2005, officers received a raise of more than 10 percent over two years, higher than many other municipal unions and more than the Bloomberg administration wanted to grant.

    But among the most controversial elements was a decision to lower starting salaries for recruits to $25,100 for the first six months while they train at the police academy. Union officials said that amount put its officers on food stamps, a notion that an administration official dismissed yesterday as false.

    "With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation. "This is a solution that raises the salary of new police officer recruits, and also gives current police officers a raise consistent with what other uniformed services have had."

    Union officials saw it differently. "It does nothing to address the critical recruitment and retention problem caused by dramatically higher police salaries in other departments," Mr. Lynch said. "Prospective recruits won't be fooled and veteran cops won't be satisfied."

    [/b]
  • zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
  • The $10,000 raise for training officers is a good start and would put salaries back in line with surrounding areas. The PBA would be stupid to ignore this.

    However, it wouldn't be the first time that the PBA shot themselves in the foot.
  • "With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation."

    I agree that this sort of thing does a disservice to the officers. We've experienced this in this very thread, where it was posted that officers making $32,700/yr didn't have enough money to eat. I think it is pretty obvious that these folks need a raise, but these horror stories that are easily proven false make it simple to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  • In response to another thread about crime, I set up a thread to talk about crime reporting in our little used Brooklyn and Beyond board . . .
    http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=412842#412842
    :D
  • daver wrote:
    "With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation."

    I agree that this sort of thing does a disservice to the officers. We've experienced this in this very thread, where it was posted that officers making $32,700/yr didn't have enough money to eat. I think it is pretty obvious that these folks need a raise, but these horror stories that are easily proven false make it simple to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


    Yeah, I make less money than that and I have no problem eating well. I just made myself a bean stew that will last me a week and probably cost me about $15 to make. (And it's got everything in there, so it's probably as complete as you can get nutrition-wise.) $25,100 is ridiculously low for the difficulty of the job and it does make things financially tight, but it's not a starvation wage either. Hell, U.S. soldiers make a hell of a lot less and they HAVE to go on food stamps if they have a family. (That's a shanda in itself!) Whereas I *think* anything over 20K puts you over the food stamp limit. Exaggeration rarely helps a cause. This is sort of what I meant by the PBA shooting itself in the foot. I'm on the cops' side on the pay issue, but I find Pat Lynch to be completely obnoxious and probably ineffective. Am I the only one?
  • what's a shanda?
  • Keep in mind that a few thousand off the top goes to uniforms and leather goods. In the academy the recruits have to pay for their academy uniforms, gun belts and accesories, gym uniforms including several pairs of high quality running shoes, cpr equipment, nightsticks, expandable batons, traffic vests, puncture resistant gloves, etc...A few months later they are looking at buying a dress uniform made up of wool pants, a summer blouse (like a sports coat) and a reefer coat (heavy winter coat). Then they are about to graduate and they have to buy a new set of uniforms for patrol including shirts both short sleeve and long(they wear grey shirts in the academy), black boots, possibly cargo pants, trauma plates (go inside vest for additional protection against blunt trauma, edged weapons and gunshots), turtlenecks, 3/4 jacket for the days in Feb. when they are standing on a foot post, etc...Don't forget an off duty firearm that also serves as a back-up weapon on patrol. None of these things are provided by the police department.
  • ParadeRest wrote: Keep in mind that a few thousand off the top goes to uniforms and leather goods. In the academy the recruits have to pay for their academy uniforms, gun belts and accesories, gym uniforms including several pairs of high quality running shoes, cpr equipment, nightsticks, expandable batons, traffic vests, puncture resistant gloves, etc...A few months later they are looking at buying a dress uniform made up of wool pants, a summer blouse (like a sports coat) and a reefer coat (heavy winter coat). Then they are about to graduate and they have to buy a new set of uniforms for patrol including shirts both short sleeve and long(they wear grey shirts in the academy), black boots, possibly cargo pants, trauma plates (go inside vest for additional protection against blunt trauma, edged weapons and gunshots), turtlenecks, 3/4 jacket for the days in Feb. when they are standing on a foot post, etc...Don't forget an off duty firearm that also serves as a back-up weapon on patrol. None of these things are provided by the police department.

    Isn't that what the uniform allowance is for?
  • A uniform allowance is great but it isn't seen until Dec. If you get hired in January you are out that money for almost a year. It's also only a thousand bucks and it's taxed. It'll take a few years of uniform allowances to make back that money and in the meantime the uniforms that they have aren't been kept up. There are still dry cleaning expenses, alterations, replacing damaged uniforms. Boots don't last that long, especially when you're walking a footpost.
  • In that case, then, maybe it isn't such an exaggeration that recruits can't afford to eat. The reason why I'm able to eat well on my paltry salary is that I'm not spending huge gobs of money on uniform and laundry expenses.

    I had a job as a waiter in a deli (not equivalent, I know) but the expenses associated with uniform upkeep pretty much kept me from breaking even. I definitely did NOT eat well at that time. Deciding between food or sanitary supplies is not a fun decision.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: Deciding between food or sanitary supplies is not a fun decision.


    You should have tried something that was dual purpose...like a twinkie!
  • This was an interesting article by a Daily News reporter on how she tried to live on a rookie cops salary

    http://tinyurl.com/22yvc3
  • do recruits live at the academy while training or do they commute?
  • Ben wrote: do recruits live at the academy while training or do they commute?


    Recruits in the New York City Police Academy commute to the academy in Manhattan. In the past the conductors on the LIRR have allowed the recruits to use the railroad eventhough they don't technically meet the criteria. A police officer must have a LIRR train pass, dept. ID, shield and firearm on their person in order to use the LIRR for free. Recruits don't get their gun, shield and real ID until just before graduating. Over the last few years the conductors have grown tired of the piss poor attitudes demonstrated by the recruits and many have stopped letting the recruits ride for free.

    I'm waiting for the "cops should live in the city" crowd to chime in here but I'll cut that off at the pass. The LIRR provides service to parts of Queens and Brooklyn not just Long Island. Recruits living in parts of the city use the LIRR to commute.

    Recruits that live in areas under served by mass transit sometimes choose to car pool. There are parking garages in the area but that cuts into their too. Street parking is nearly impossible to find. I'm not looking for pity on this point. I know many people live in areas not well served by mass transit. I'm just pointing it out.
  • Yeah, and with that sort of salary, living in the city is often impossible unless one lives with mom.

    Thank you, ParadeRest, for bringing this to light. Many of us had no idea.
  • ]

    You should have tried something that was dual purpose...like a twinkie!
    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • There are cops EVERYWHERE!
  • justplainzach wrote: There are cops EVERYWHERE!


    That reminds me of the Dane Cook bit...There's like a thousand firemen here. The firemen are bumping into eachother going, "who brought a thousand of us here." Great bit.
  • this shit is silly. i walked five blocks last night and saw at least eight foot patrol cops, four prowlers and two vans. it's completely over-the-top, unnecessary and disgusting.
  • im pissed too! first the cops doctor the crime stats to make it look like this area is an impact zone, then they send a bunch of officers out here to protect us! the nerve!

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