Is the crime Race Related?

anonymous

A bit off topic, but I've always loved the term "blondie". It sounds so cool, and reminds me of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".

escap

This is quite the friendly bunch. I have to be honest, I don't do a lot of saying "hello" to most of my neighbors, black, white, blue or green. I work hard and often have a ton of things on my mind on my way back from the subway at night. If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

But I'm never bothered in a criminal sense (knock on wood). Why? My theory is that it's b/c I'm 6'3". When I was 11 yrs old and a pipsqueak I used to get messed with all the time. By the time I was 15 and had grown everyone left me alone. I don't think it had much to do with my friendliness.

bluedove

t-fal wrote: milk of magnesia!?!?! WTF? :shock: your presence must have loosened them up some then? god i used to get called snowflake, or snow white, or just snow...which always caused me to get that "informer!" song in my head. now its just the plain old unimaginitive whitegirl or blondie.

hahaha...yeah, i know, right? how can you get offended by something that's just so bizarre??? my only regret about that incident is that i wasn't quick enough on the uptake to say something clever back.

"Yo, what up, Milk of Magnesia!"
"Just fine, Ovaltine, how are you?"

Mostly I get Blondie or sweetie or whatever too, though. *snore*

arielbl

I get "red".
These guys just aren't that creative.

isa

escap wrote: If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

Ha ha.

dailyheights

If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

I go around greeting the hood like Mr. Robinson. Sometimes it backfires.

candicissima

escap wrote: This is quite the friendly bunch. I have to be honest, I don't do a lot of saying "hello" to most of my neighbors, black, white, blue or green. I work hard and often have a ton of things on my mind on my way back from the subway at night. If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

That is on the money. I know damned well I look downright evil 90% of the time on the walk home from work. Because I'm totally exhausted and really can't think that much beyond dinner and how glad I'll be to get in my place. If my mom was saying hi to me on the street, I'd probably scowl. But, besides that, I'm really nice and even feeling blah, I still manage a smile and a "hey" for some of my cooler neighbors.

bluedove

Candicissima wrote: [quote=escap]This is quite the friendly bunch. I have to be honest, I don't do a lot of saying "hello" to most of my neighbors, black, white, blue or green. I work hard and often have a ton of things on my mind on my way back from the subway at night. If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

That is on the money. I know damned well I look downright evil 90% of the time on the walk home from work. Because I'm totally exhausted and really can't think that much beyond dinner and how glad I'll be to get in my place. If my mom was saying hi to me on the street, I'd probably scowl. But, besides that, I'm really nice and even feeling blah, I still manage a smile and a "hey" for some of my cooler neighbors.

Well yeah, I am not skipping down the street shaking hands and passing out cookies on my way home from work or anything, but I will nod or smile or something if I catch someone's eye. And I guess I do make an effort not to stare at my feet the whole time.

That said, I only live three doors down from the subway stop.

Dailyheights:

candicissima

Someone actually should skip down the street passing out cookies. I think that'd be really funny.

Which reminds me: according to a flyer that I saw in my lobby, there's going to be a block party on St. Johns between Underhill and Washington on the 20th. They're seeking volunteers/donations/etc and the contact person lives in 411. That'd be a perfect time for everyone on "Crazy Lane" to meet some neighbors.

anonymous

I think race may be a factor, among others. I certainly have gotten comments based on my big homo-ness, but i have never felt that these are race realted. If anything i think its a class issue. RBG seems to bring this up by focusing on race but then saying she is watching her back because she has an ipod. I personally think its incorrect to assume its all about one trait or another. my personal experience has more to do with my sexuality, but that doesn't lead me to generalize. I think the issue is more complex than RBG implies, though i appreciate her starting of a discussion.

isa

Candicissima wrote: Someone actually should skip down the street passing out cookies. I think that'd be really funny.

Which reminds me: according to a flyer that I saw in my lobby, there's going to be a block party on St. Johns between Underhill and Washington on the 20th. They're seeking volunteers/donations/etc and the contact person lives in 411. That'd be a perfect time for everyone on "Crazy Lane" to meet some neighbors.

Yeah I saw the flyer too. I might be out of town, if not I'm going to participate somehow.

escap

guest a gogo wrote: I think race may be a factor, among others. I certainly have gotten comments based on my big homo-ness, but i have never felt that these are race realted. If anything i think its a class issue. RBG seems to bring this up by focusing on race but then saying she is watching her back because she has an ipod. I personally think its incorrect to assume its all about one trait or another. my personal experience has more to do with my sexuality, but that doesn't lead me to generalize. I think the issue is more complex than RBG implies, though i appreciate her starting of a discussion.

You're still equating hostility with crime. Homophobic harrassment is inexcusable, but it's not the same thing as robbery. Most robbery is economically, not racially motivated. The victims of most crime perpretrated by blacks are other blacks! Criminals prey on the weak. Yes, there is a bias that whites make an easy target--they carry $ and they won't fight back. Yes, having friendly relations with your neighbors will make you less afraid of the nabe, and therefore criminals won't pick up the "fear scent" on you. But street smarts will serve you best of all.

anonymous

Subject: helllloooo?!?

Candicissima wrote: [quote=escap]This is quite the friendly bunch. I have to be honest, I don't do a lot of saying "hello" to most of my neighbors, black, white, blue or green. I work hard and often have a ton of things on my mind on my way back from the subway at night. If I see my nextdoor neighbor or something, of course I'll say what's up, but otherwise I don't go around greeting the hood like Mr. Rogers.

That is on the money. I know damned well I look downright evil 90% of the time on the walk home from work. Because I'm totally exhausted and really can't think that much beyond dinner and how glad I'll be to get in my place. If my mom was saying hi to me on the street, I'd probably scowl. But, besides that, I'm really nice and even feeling blah, I still manage a smile and a "hey" for some of my cooler neighbors.

I ran into a high school classmate, and it turns out we lived on the same block in Manhattan for two years, but we never noticed each other on the street. I don't want Brooklyn to be like that.

Regarding Candicissima's quote, I don't care if I sound like Mr. Rogers, but pretty much everybody works hard. That's not an excuse to walk down the street looking like a robot.

I talk to a lot of people on the street, partially because it's my nature, partially because I'm active in fighting Ratner. So here's a possibly inflammatory observation from someone considered "white": The rudest people walking around tend to be white. There are people who are so busy talking on their cell phones that would get run over by a firetruck speeding to save their home.

Of course I'm guilty of a being a sullen New Yorker too, but I don't think it does me any good. And I certainly don't want to see any false chipper faces, but give me those old guys hanging out on their stoops any day.

~Raul

escap

Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with saying hello if you happen to meet eyes, or with being friendly in general, but it just seemed people were making a big deal about the friendliness issue, and were tying it to criminal vulnerability, which I think is almost completely unrelated. Of course I treat all my neighbors with courtesy and respect.

But come on, this is New York. I lived in Texas for three years and down there, EVERYBODY says hello to you, no matter where you are. For me it was dizzying, and I have to admit kind of annoying. I missed NYC, where people mind their own business, but I know that's considered "rudeness" by many people, including those Texans, who always told me New Yorkers were rude. I guess you are in that camp as well, and there's nothing wrong with that. As to which race of people is the rudest, that seems pretty subjective. Those friendly Texans I'm talking about were mostly white. I guess I'm in the "rude camp".

But I also lived in Tokyo for three years, and NOBODY says anything to anyone over there, and sure enough, the rural types thought Tokyo-ites were unfriendly, but to me it's more of a city mentality. You can't judge someone based on their superficial relationships with strangers.

jamesondean

Side rant: cellphone staggerers.

When people on cellphones get run over, it's called "thinning the herd." Hang up and walk, people. If you need to make or take a call, stop walking, go to the side of the sidewalk after checking that you're in a safe environment, and make the call. Keep your wits about you and keep looking around.

Anything else is, at minimum, rude, since it's impossible to make all of the minute adjustments in walking necessary for NYC crowds while you're engaged in a conversation, just like it's impossible to drive just as well while on the phone as when not.

Side rant over.

t-fal

bluedove wrote:

"Yo, what up, Milk of Magnesia!"

you can also say: "loose as a goose! and you ovaltine?"

emily

escap wrote: But I also lived in Tokyo for three years, and NOBODY says anything to anyone over there, and sure enough, the rural types thought Tokyo-ites were unfriendly, but to me it's more of a city mentality. You can't judge someone based on their superficial relationships with strangers.

I've been meaning to post this thought for a while, and escap's invocation of city/country manners being an international phenomenon reminds me to do it...

I think that there is research showing that behaviors that come off as "avoidance"--e.g. not greeting people or making eye contact--are a normal way for people to cope with an environment that is full of people and often deprives them of their privacy, whether physical or mental/perceived. People who live in the "country" do not deal with the kind of crowding that we do in NYC (or, yikes! Tokyo) so they do not need to resort to avoiding people.

Think about it: if you are in an ultra-crowded subway train, the kind of ride where someone's ass is in your face and someone's stepping on your foot and your bag keeps snagging on other people--do you make eye contact with those people who are so close, waayyy too close, to you or do you studiously avoid their gaze? In a situation like that, people only look at each other to intimate "Hey! Get off my foot!" and in that context of physical proximity, merely looking at someone can feel aggressive in a way that it never would if you were encountering a single other person on a five-foot-wide sidewalk.

The report I saw on this was on "Nova" (I think) about ten years ago. They did a bit about a bus stop the researchers had been watching. It was too awkward to make small talk every morning, so the people didn't talk to each other. One morning, the bus was really late so they all started talking about it. Next morning: awkward! The people didn't know whether to talk to each other or not! When the researchers interviewed some of them, they found that they were stressed out about it.

I saw this program before I moved to New York and it really stuck with me, as I found myself unconsciously adopting some of the mannerisms in the face of the overcrowding here, for example, being aware of what people around me are doing without appearing to look at them.

I bring this up not to excuse people who are being flat-out rude, but to suggest that walking down the street and making small talk with people may be normal in a suburb or small town, but that "keeping to yourself" could certainly be considered a normal psychological response to city life.

bluedove

Emily: Absolutely! That's one of the things I dislike the most about living in New York, actually: You are forced, for want of sanity, to develop this mental bubble around yourself ("Even though your pocketbook is currently more familiar with my crotch than I am, I can't see you! La la la!")

Even though I am NOT by nature a very gregarious person, and in some situations could be truthfully described as shy, it feels SO GOOD to go to places where I can actually let down that wall a little bit and actually interact with the world around me. If I can find a little piece of that in my neighborhood, at least, then hallelujah. Like I said, it's not a matter of being aggressively friendly, per se, but being more open and responsive than I am when I'm anywhere else in the city.

That is not to say that people here are inherently rude or horrible or anything--I act just as rude and horrible :evil: as everyone else at 9:00 am squeezing through tourist central to get to work. But that doesn't mean I enjoy being that way.

Also, escap, when I first tried to explain why I thought that a neighborly attitude IS related to crime, you said "I never said it was unrelated!" Now you just said "it's almost completely unrelated." Which is it? Do you not agree that someone who keeps himself completely to himself is more vulnerable than someone who is engaged in his surroundings? If, as a mugger, you were looking to prey on someone, would you pick the guy alone in the corner or the guy pausing to say hello to a couple of neighbors? The guy you see scowling alone down the street every day or the guy you talked to about the Yankees/Red Sox on the subway platform that one time? I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all of urban safety, I'm just saying that it does make SOME difference. This is not an all-or-nothing situation; lots of things have an effect on your likelihood of being targeted. I'm just saying that this is ONE of them. Of COURSE you could be Mr. Joe Friendly and still get mugged. You could also eat healthfully, exercise regularly, never smoke a day in your life, and still get cancer. Doesn't mean that it was worthless to make healthy choices.

t-fal: hahaha! well at least now you'll be prepared with a good comeback if that guy ever shouts out to you!

daveb

I fully enjoy my mental bubble. 8)

escap

Bluedove, did I say that? If so, maybe it was a typo, otherwise, sorry for contradicting myself. For the record, what I meant to say was that being friendly DOES NOT affect your likelihood of being victimized. I would qualify that by adding "for the most part." As I said before, I think the true value of having good relations with your neighbors is that if you feel at home on your block you're bound to look more confident, and confidence is unappealing to muggers. Also, I suppose word of mouth with friendly neighbors could help you to look out for some kind of a neighborhood predator, etc. So in that sense you're right, but I think the effect is minimal overall.

Call me a cynic, but I grew up in Ft Greene in the 70s and 80s when it was a very rough nabe, and I've seen it transform into what it is today. As a little kid, I was often harrassed and/or mugged, and I basically believe it was because I was small, meek and made a very easy target. Once I got older, nobody bothered me, b/c I held myself with more confidence, knew where to walk and when, and was probably passed over by the muggers for someone who looked like easier prey. The point is, the muggers don't talk to you about the Yankees game at all, no matter how friendly you are. And the types of people who would have a friendly chat with you, wouldn't mug you for being rude. And if I were a mugger, I'd probably go after the friendly guy before the scowling guy, b/c the scowling guy might just have a knife or something.

Sorry, I know that's kind of a depressing view, and I don't mean to discourage you from being friendly or to make you paranoid. By all means, you should bring some warmth to the block, say hello, help your neighbor keep a parking spot, bring some food to the block party, etc. It can't hurt, just don't expect it to work miracles. I basically think we're in agreement, just look at the situation from a slightly different angle.

bluedove

escap wrote: I basically think we're in agreement, just look at the situation from a slightly different angle.

I think so too.

Last night when I was walking around the hood, I couldn't stop envisioning skipping about handing out cookies

alex

escap wrote: J

But I also lived in Tokyo for three years, and NOBODY says anything to anyone over there, and sure enough, the rural types thought Tokyo-ites were unfriendly, but to me it's more of a city mentality. You can't judge someone based on their superficial relationships with strangers.

にほんごがわかりますか

anonymous

RBG (RichBlackGirl),

Here we go again. FWIW, Miss RBG, I am a (very rich) black guy who grew up in the hood (not in NYC), used to live in PH (when I 1st moved to NYC many yrs ago), and now lives in Park Slope.

IMO, crime is driven by opportunity, not race. That said, there are obviously some demographic issues at work in PH/CH. If you're white, chances are good that you are a recent transplant, which at least gives the appearance of (1) having money and (2) being in unfamiliar territory, which adds up to being perceived as an easier target. Criminals tend to pick on the folks they perceive to represent the easiest and most fruitful opportunity. But haveyou noticed that teens (black, white and hispanic) get mugged a lot too: (1) they're easy to isolate (walking home from school, sports, etc.), (2) Can be intimidated by a gang or larger physique, (3) tend to carry popular valuables (like bikes, ipods, jackets, etc.), and (4) are less likely to get the police involved.

I am very friendly with my neighbors (most of whom are white). We wave and say hello and chat with each other. We depend on each other as homeowners, ranging from borrowing tools to looking after our houses when someone is away on vacation. And many times when we are outside, sitting on out stoop or tending our garden we will greet and strike up conversations with complete strangers.

None of this will necessarily reduce my chances of being mugged. My neighbors would just as soon help a stranger as a neighbor. But being plugged in to what is going on around your home is important. They do act as an early warning alert for problems. If they saw somebody shady hanging around my house, they'd call me or call the cops.

RBG, I think you have your cause and effect mixed up. Are whites targeted more frequently for crime in PH/CH? I don't truly know the answer to that. I don't doubt that black muggers yell racial insults at white victims (that doesn't make the cause racial). And yes, there are some white guys that got the crap beat out of them by a gang of black toughs. But, don't you think that same gang has also probably beaten more than a few black guys they perceive as weaker or on the wrong turf or too uppity, etc. Of course they have. But, it won't get reported to the police and it won't show up on dailyheights.com. Crime in the black community is largely "invisible" crime that doesn't even show up in stats.

And in my experience, young black women get just as many catcalls, get followed down the street, and get propositioned far far more often than white women do.

So, tell me. Do you really think the crime against whites in PH is due to some sort of racial hatred. While some blacks may resent the influx of newcomers and all the loaded gentrification issues that accompany such an influx, that does not create new crime in and of itself. The criminals were already there - they have simply been provided with more material to work with.

t-fal

Miguel wrote:
And in my experience, young black women get just as many catcalls, get followed down the street, and get propositioned far far more often than white women do.

from what i've seen, you are totally spot on with that assessment. and generally, the comments that the young black women get are much more vulgar and lewd. i normally only rank a hiss, but it still upsets me to hear some of the comments that the other women in my neighborhood get. its degrading to all of us.

and i have to wonder, do these assholes ever successfully pick up women in this manner?

anonymous

Subject: lincoln pl

Just to add my two cents: I've lived on Lincoln b/w Wash & Underhill for two years, and I've never lived on a friendlier block. People say hi and talk to each other all the time, kids seem always to be playing outside, and all of my neighbors have been unfailingly polite (pretty much across the board). And, yeah, I'm a white guy who generally leads the life of a hermit.

escap

Alex wrote: [quote=escap]J

But I also lived in Tokyo for three years, and NOBODY says anything to anyone over there, and sure enough, the rural types thought Tokyo-ites were unfriendly, but to me it's more of a city mentality. You can't judge someone based on their superficial relationships with strangers.

にほんごがわかりますか

はい、わかります。

anonymous

I just want to point out ... owning a BMW (or leasing?) doesn't make you rich. This is NYC. Come on. There are bazillionaires here. I see no evidence here of real wealth. I think RBG should be changed to NPBG (Not Poor BG).

spinningpinwheel

escap wrote: [quote=Alex][quote=escap]J

But I also lived in Tokyo for three years, and NOBODY says anything to anyone over there, and sure enough, the rural types thought Tokyo-ites were unfriendly, but to me it's more of a city mentality. You can't judge someone based on their superficial relationships with strangers.

にほんごがわかりますか

はい、わかります。

Secrets secrets are no fun!

anonymous

You can play too:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

dailyheights

Can someone translate for people who don't have Kanji characters installed?