Underhill Mugging: Cop says satchel-wearers should move

ugh

giving guns to scared people = accidents

Subject: Re: The Truth Hurts

RBG wrote: Racism in this country is alive and well and it manifests itself in many ways. When black kids connect racism and white men with keeping them in the hood, they're going to lash out at those people (white) when they cross into territory that they perceive as belonging to them.

There are several problems with this statement.

1) As is evidenced by the high prices of houses and apartments in Prospect Heights, the area is highly desirable. Referring to the neighborhood as the "hood" in the spirit of a rapper is a bit inaccurate.

2) It is illogical to blame white people for anything. The standard of living of blacks in the United States and Brooklyn in particular is higher than anywhere else in the world. They have homes and access to jobs, education, and material goods 99% of black people can only dream of.

While the roots of racism and poverty run deep, in a place like Prospect Heights, the disparities are right there for everyone to see---in black and white. Poor black kids living side by side with white people who make 100k and more a year. Section 8 folks live in the same buildings as young, oftentimes white, professionals. The economic disparities are glaring, and the result is rage...Some of you may know this--I'm a writer. When I first started writing about Gentrification almost 10 years ago, I asked one very simple question: If we can't live in the ghetto---then where in the world can WE live???

Unfortunately, what you describe is avarice - a common motivator of antisocial behavior. Most of these black kids are not poor in any sense known by the vast majority of the world's inhabitants. They are not starving, they have access to all the same video games and consumer goods enjoyed by everyone else, and they live in the same apartments that white people pay top dollar for. If they want a better life - the kind that comes with self discipline - violence is certainly not going to get it for them. The reality is this kind of antisocial behavior has no excuse in such a generous society as that found in New York City. Perhaps government handouts such as Section 8 housing is the real problem here. Perhaps these thugs don't realize how good they really have it. Perhaps, if they were starving and fighting for their lives on a daily basis like most of the people in Africa, they would feel quite fortunate to receive so much from a society that asks almost nothing of them save for civilized behavior.

Also, the obvious truth regarding Section 8 housing is simple: You can get a mansion in most of the country with a Section 8 voucher. If New York City is so bad, move to South Carolina. If you're just going to suck on the government tit to survive, why do it here? No one is forcing these kids to stay in the hood.

I am the first to admit that this is indeed, a black/white issue.

In this day in age where blacks are increasingly irrelevant in the demographic landscape of NYC, I find this statement perplexing. White people generally are quite passive, which is perhaps their flaw - but what happens when hispanics start to move to the "hood" as you call it? In Los Angeles, tremendous racial violence is the result. Around the country, evidence is quite clear this is not a black/white issue, but a black versus everybody else issue. Stopping the cycle of violence can only begin when articulate, intelligent, professional blacks such as yourself condemn the culture of violence that exists in the black community. That means stop making excuses, condemn the kind of abject materialism that dominates black culture today, and extolling the virtues of civilization - ie magnanimity, temperance, and self restraint. Dreaming of being a rapper, gangster, or basketball star will not get you anywhere in life. Indulging in decadent consumption of food, drink, and drugs is no path to success. Justifying violence will only get you killed in the end.

I'm saving my $$ and planning an exit strategy...Its time for me to move.

Sounds like you don't receive Section 8 benefits. It also sounds like you'd rather take a passive role in this cultural struggle rather than an active one of which you are clearly capable.

This is a problem that can be solved, and in many ways it has been. Nationally, most blacks do have a middle class standard of living. Still however - it really irks me that we continue to have this kind of racially motivated violence and pathetic attempts attempts at justifying it. We've come so far, and it is a real shame when someone as intelligent as yourself plays the race card in a situation that should be universally condemned by anyone who adheres to laws and ideals of this land.

benzapp:

so, just because blacks in NYC have it better than blacks in africa that means they should be thankful??? are you serious? we are the most powerful country in the free world...we can do better.

also, if you think NYC has treated its minority population so well, i suggest you do some reading about the history of this city. title 1 and title 2 led to the complete ghettoization and relocation of the african american population in this city to harlem, bedford-stuyvesant, and other locations in brooklyn. it's absolutely disgusting.

regarding rap music and hip-hop culture: the appalling societal conditions were around BEFORE rap music -- rap was a RESPONSE to it. it may contribute to the problem right now, but it is certainly not the source of the problem.

also, you should try a little harder to veil your hatred of blacks and the poor in general.

Benzapp:
Your posting is so off-the-mark on so many levels, that I can't even being to respond. No offense, but many of the points you make show no real understanding of this country's history---or even the history of your neighborhood, Prospect Heights. From which perspective do you write? And of which neighborhoods do you write??? Case in point----you make reference to the Black/Latino divide in California without pointing out that this divide did not exist until the Bush administration declared the "War on Illegal Immigration." When the Republican party decided to use old fashioned divide and conquer tactics (i.e. telling poor blacks that the "mexicans," are taking YOUR jobs), the rift between blacks and latinos grew. If you've ever travelled to South Central LA, you'd KNOW that the many factions of the Crips and Bloods are indeed, racially integrated gangs. For the record, black and latinos existed harmoniously for MANY, MANY years in California (both Northern and Southern) before the so-called "War on Immigration." If you are going to make comments like this one, at least provide an historical context or some understanding of the community of which you write....

Subject: Re: The Truth Hurts

doctorj wrote: [quote=benzapp]
2) It is illogical to blame white people for anything. The standard of living of blacks in the United States and Brooklyn in particular is higher than anywhere else in the world. They have homes and access to jobs, education, and material goods 99% of black people can only dream of.

I call bullshit on this one. Most black people living in other OECD nations get universal healthcare, state support for tertiary education, paid maternity leave, etc. etc., as well as no recent history of slavery or segregation.

As most of these black people are recent immigrants from former colonies of European imperialism, I'd say you haven't thought about this enough.

Your points regarding the socialist policies of OECD nations also misses some important points - ie Medicaid, our excellent cheap public universities, and comparative wealth. How many of these black immigrants to OECD nations are truly middle class? There are millions of middle class blacks in this country.

That said, the US alone probably has more black people than every other OECD nation combined. It is much easier to take care of a tiny minority than a larger one. As well, we've had 40+ years of destructive social policies. France for instance has only recently come to experience the disruptive effects of ghettoizing minorities in public housing projects as we did 50 years ago.

benzapp:

yes, harlem is a historically black neighborhood. but there are also other historically black neighborhood's in the lower parts of manhattan. these were destroyed because of title 1 and title 2, and blacks were relocated to housing projects harlem, the bronx, and bedford-stuyvesant. these people were promised new housing in the neighborhoods that they already lived in and were lied too, plain and simple. do you dispute this? read about Robert Moses and what he did to this city.

yes, black people are free to live anywhere in this city that they choose. just like anyone in this city and country can be rich. everyone can be rich! and if you aren't rich it's because you're lazy. i've heard this reasoning before, bought into it for 5 seconds, and then realized that it is blaming the victim.

yup, personal responsibility definitely has its place.

one also has to recognize the impact of underlying societal conditions and social policies if change is desired.

mr. met wrote: benzapp:

yes, harlem is a historically black neighborhood. but there are also other historically black neighborhood's in the lower parts of manhattan. these were destroyed because of title 1 and title 2, and blacks were relocated to housing projects harlem, the bronx, and bedford-stuyvesant. these people were promised new housing in the neighborhoods that they already lived in and were lied too, plain and simple. do you dispute this? read about Robert Moses and what he did to this city.

yes, black people are free to live anywhere in this city that they choose. just like anyone in this city and country can be rich. everyone can be rich! and if you aren't rich it's because you're lazy. i've heard this reasoning before, bought into it for 5 seconds, and then realized that it is blaming the victim.

I'm familiar with the history, and I despise Moses as much as the next man. BUT, It wasn't like they put a gun to their heads and said "Move to the projects or you die!"

I've been in housing projects and seen that the units are in fact quite spacious. I'd kill to have a 1,100 square foot 2-bedroom apartment like those in the projects if it was safe. So some people didn't get new housing, but quite a few did - and what did they do? Trash it.

I live in a craphole apartment myself, mind you. It sucks to be an adult and live in a dump, but you know what? I suck it up and don't go around beating people.

Anyway... You really want to know why blacks got shafted? Redlining, plain and simple. That's wrong, and I'll be the first to say it.

The problem is, anti-development NIMBY types have the same effect as racist bankers who made it impossible for blacks to get loans. The only difference is NOW the city won't even let new buildings be constructed so a few rich townhouse owners can keep their views.

Yeah, we don't have redlining now and we have places like Bed-Stuy that have a sizable middle-class population - but you know what? Who cares if they can qualify for a loan when no one is building housing.

All I am saying is people today pay a lot of money to live in apartments that were constructed a century ago as ghetto housing for poor laborers. Developers can and do provide cheap housing, but today we make it all but impossible. I think it is very misguided to see people justifying barbaric violence and bring up housing when the problem should be very clear to anyone with an ounce of sense. That said, focus on real solutions to this housing crisis. First among them is make it easier for developers to actually build housing.

Some just don't get it. The super rich developers LOVE how the city laws make it impossible to build new housing. It guarantees there will always be a housing shortage so they can forever make a lot of money with minimal risk. There will be no major busts like Harlem again as long as these guys are in charge. Even the low-income housing programs are great because not only is building it low risk, the government gives you a subsidized loan.

/end rant

i'm in favor of this satchel-wearer ethnic cleansing movement. is there a paypal donation, or are they solely funded by re-selling macbooks?

Wow! I cannot believe the utter nonsense I'm reading in this thread! I was so floored, that I actually had to register to make this post, because I just couldn't believe how skewed some of the perceptions are on the part of some posters.

I was a former long-time resident of Prospect Heights, from 1973-1995. My parents were longtime residents for a little over 31 years. I'm just saying that, because I don't want anyone to think I'm just some random person with barely any history in this neighborhood. I know this neighborhood intimately.

With that being said, let's get down to business:

1) If some of you want to start playing the violins about white people "encroaching on black territory", you have no idea what can of worms you're opening up. Up until the mid-late 60s, PH was 100% white. My parents were literally one of the first black families to move into St. John's Place in 1963, before all the whites went "There goes the neighborhood" and fled to the suburbs. In fact, the very last white residents and white-owned establishments from that pre-black era didn't even leave until the mid-80s.

If you want to lament the plight of middle class families being "pushed out" by the upperclass, that's fine, because I suppose that PH has always been middle class, even when it was white. But don't start acting as if the blacks of PH are being pushed out of their ancestral home like the Native Americans were, because their presence here has been very, very recent. As my mother now notes whenever I give her a report about the new white residents to our former building and neighborhood, "The neighborhood's going back to the way it was."

And geez, don't even go there with this nonsense about whites being attacked because they're "possibly" rubbing residents the wrong way by not respecting the neighborhood they're going to. If whites *are* being attacked out of territoriality, it has NOTHING to do with their skin color; for as LONG as I can remember growing up in PH, there has always been the problem of newcomers with a "ghetto mentality" moving into this neighborhood, copping a "we own the place attitude," and then going out to mark their territory. Sometimes they would grow so arrogant that they would even look at us "longtime residents" as if we didn't belong in "their hood."

2) The people who are in any, way, shape, or form *suggesting* that this crime wave is a black/ white issue don't have a clue of what they're talking about. There's been rampant crime in this neighborhood since the crack epidemic in the 80s. Back before the thugs were attacking "whitey" they were attacking "blackey" for a good number of years. There is nothing remarkable or "significant" about the victims being white, other than the fact that the thugs have run out of black people to mug.

3) Prospect Heights a ghetto, emblematic of black poverty and the plight of the underclass? You've GOT to me kidding me. PH has never, ever, ever "been the ghetto" or "da hood." Not in a million years. Not even close. It has and always will be "the nabe", not "da hood." Ghetto elements TRIED to make it the hood by moving into this neighborhood and setting up shop in abandoned buildings with their crack and other stuff, terrorizing the residents for years. But this has always been low middle class-middle class area through and through, not an "underclass" neighborhood. Several children in this area are alumni of both Catholic grammar and high schools, for God's sake. Where do you think their parents got the money to pay for their tuition if this area was da hood? Where the hell do you think those black kids from St. Joseph's High School, St. Augustine in Park Slope, and St. Theresa came from? Park Avenue?

4) For the person romanticizing the "kids" from this neighborhood and "seeing herself in them," you'd better think twice again about doing that. These kids are not "poor, desperate," or "hopeless," from any oppression. These kids are angry, anti-social BRATS who act the way they do because they come from broken homes where there are no fathers to discipline them, and their mothers, who had them too young, treat them like trash, either through abuse or neglect. So they grow up on the street with no parental direction or discipline and became very dangerous, sociopathic individuals with no regard for rules or order.

So you're not doing these kids any favors by "seeing yourself in them" and romanticizing them as victims of racism. You're actually hurting them by not looking at the real cause of their behavior-- unwed, immature teen mothers or drug/ alcohol-addicted parents-- raising unruly kids.

You're also hurting yourself. Keep gazing with romantic affection into their eyes with pity and affinity. All of that romanticism will be shot when one day they brazenly attack you with no less indifference than they would a white person. It'll happen-- trust me.

5) The idea that rap reflected "social elements" that were always there is the biggest bunch of crappola there ever was.

I could go into a dissertation about how Gangsta Rap was probably the biggest disaster to hit black americans since MLK died-- and no, I'm not even being facetious about that. Gangsta Rap sold a false image of "blackness" to an entire generation of kids, so that they could learn how to be the very embodiment of the nasty, racist stereotypes that have been perpetrated about blacks for over a century. Rap created those conditions; it didn't reflect them; the "pre-existing conditions" shpiel was the LIE rappers told black youth in order to sell their records, that they were "speaking the truth."

6) To the person who glibly suggested that there is no evidence of blacks being pushed out of their homes, there were reports in either 2006 or 2007 (I can't remember which) that NYC was seeing huge mass exoduses of blacks. It was reportedly one of the largest mass exoduses anywhere in something like 40 years. They may not be necessarily be pushed out by young white college kids but they are being pushed out by luxury condos catering to a presumably affluent white upperclass.

So, really... I mean, honestly. Just had to get the record straight on a few things, because I just found some of the arrogance in this thread aggravating, especially when someone brashly stated that he or she knows the history of Prospect Heights and put down someone else for "not knowing it." Not only are you as ignorant about this neighborhood as the person you're putting down, you're projecting a lot of bizarre socio-economic-cultural elements onto it that were never in play in the first place. Just saying.

Lol, nice first post, what do you do for an encore?

Unfortunately, I think you'll find that well reasoned arguments with supporting facts go over poorly here. Or at least fall on deaf, emotional ears.

I certainly appreciated it, as a member of the choir.

Subject: The truth be told

rcheru2365, thank you.

daver wrote: Lol, nice first post, what do you do for an encore?

Bow out gracefully-- I hope.

sweet tea wrote: rcheru2364=my new hero

Glad to be of service.

Hamilton wrote: rcheru2365, thank you.

No prob.

cpower wrote: Perhaps if the Atlantic Yards project falls over, we could put together some community facilities in that area, to give the kids your talking about an opportunity to make something of their lives...? Maybe an acquatic centre, gym, b'ball, tennis courts, library and function halls etc?

That would certainly be a big, fat, huge help and go a very long way in taming these kids and stopping the hoodlums-standing-on-a-street-corner-swilling-40-ounces phenomenon that's been a staple in PH since the mid-80s (or at least seemed to be on the bodega on the corner of Washington and St. John's when I used to live there).

One of the things that's really shocked me is how few community centers there are in the very places that need them. You go out to other neighborhoods and they seem to come a dime a dozen. You go out to the minority areas and there are hardly any. And then people wonder why the kids act as crazy as they do. There's no place to go and nothing to do. There are no boy/girl scouts to be a part of and no camp to join. It's a mess.

cpower wrote: hey all, i have recently moved into the neighbourhood... i didnt realise this area would have so much violence (i am referring to the muggings/shootings/violence map created). am from another "world" where no one had guns, so am totally shocked to the core about open gun violence at what seemed to me to be a normal looking affluent suburb where all people would fight over is the best coffee shop in the joint and increasing traffic/noise pollution.

is this violence/crime normal?; should i be wearing a bullet proof vest when i leave my apartment? should i expect being caught in the middle of a gun fight

Don't panic. Some crime has always been a part of any urban area. Prospect Heights is no different. I have worked around here for 25 years and crime used to be a lot worse; mostly drugs and stealing.

The internet and blogs (including this one) advertise the slightest event and make it seem bigger.

For every one of those crime statistic reported in these posts, I heard no actual street talk in the community about it even when it was just around the corner from me. Unfortunately for the victims, small amounts of crime is just background, in every neighborhood.

There are more car accidents per day than there are muggings.

There is no crime wave.

On the other hand, don't walk around playing the role of a victim waiting to happen. If you walk around with hundred dollar bills pinned to your lapel, you are much more likely to be robbed than me.

wirenut wrote: rcheru2364 wrote:

One of the things that's really shocked me is how few community centers there are in the very places that need them. You go out to other neighborhoods and they seem to come a dime a dozen. You go out to the minority areas and there are hardly any

I think you were more on target with the bad parenting theme.
I grew up without community centers (didn't know what it was) and I turned out fine, but I had and still have great parents though.

Sorry-- I wasn't suggesting that the lack of community centers caused kids to turned bad, just that not having enough of them could've maybe gone a long way to do something about the kids who *didn't* have good parents.

Like, I remember growing up, there was this bully who used to live next door to us. Her mom was crazy (we could always hear her screams and yells through the walls). The girl used to stand outside on St. John's near Washington to beg for 25 cents-- not for "food", but to buy candy and icies. She was a bum, because her mother just allowed her to go out on the street every day and do whatever she wanted. If there had been a *secular* community center with a place to hang out, I doubt that she would've been doing that.

I say *secular* because she *could* have gone to Sunday School at Duryea on Underhill Avenue (which had pageants, trips, the Girl Scouts, etc), but I really didn't see this drug addicted psycho and bully going to Church.

wirenut wrote: I also agree that the muggings are more "I've got to prove I'm tough machoism" than because "I'm poor and need the money"

On the muggings-- yes, it bears repeating: do NOT romanticize these kids or "see yourself in them". Do not pity them with the patronizing stance of an anthropologist looking at South African blacks traumatized by the legacy of apartheid. They're well fed, well clothed predators, not kids "lashing out" at the system. I know this firsthand: I was viciously attacked in the Underhill Avenue Park at the age of 14 by a gang of them next to the BPL back in 1987, because the kids I was showing the park to that day were obvious recent Haitian immigrants (spoke only Creole, didn't "dress" like Americans, etc). They threw rocks at my head, knocked my glasses off my face, screamed curses and shoved and attacked us all with knives. They would've shoved us bodily down that flight of stairs if we hadn't outrun them.

They were not "poor." They were not lashing out due to oppression. They were well fed and well clothed, certainly more well fed than the Haitian kids they had attacked, who up until their immigration had lived in shacks with no electricity or modern luxuries. These kids were common thugs and had become predators due to lack of discipline. They were just a typical gang of snot-nosed thugs who saw "Haitian kids" encroaching in "on their turf" who "didn't belong"-- and decided to do something about it.

So like I said, if you're going around sighing romantically about these thugs, you'd better think long and hard about that, because you have no idea who you're romanticising.