2008 Presidental Election: Obama v McCain
Obama is going to win, fairly handily.
I shall spend the next 5 months dropping my political knowledge on you guys.
I shall spend the next 5 months dropping my political knowledge on you guys.
Comments
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Just make sure you also carry a scooper.
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My knowledge smells like flowers
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Subject: Re: 2008 Presidental Election: Obama v McCain
Boygabriel wrote: Obama is going to win, fairly handily.
You could start by substantiating this broad claim. -
I so hope BG is right, but I've done a lot of traveling in the past 6 months to other US cities and have had to sit at airports watching Fox News and listening to people insist that Obama is a Muslim, refuses to salute the flag, etc. It's a different world once you get away from NY/CA and other blue states
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Flexichick wrote: I so hope BG is right, but I've done a lot of traveling in the past 6 months to other US cities and have had to sit at airports watching Fox News and listening to people insist that Obama is a Muslim, refuses to salute the flag, etc. It's a different world once you get away from NY/CA and other blue states
yep. I just posted an anecdote from this AM in the clinton thread - hispanic chef at work wanted clinton to win, insists he can't vote for a guy named obama hussain. his words: "his name says it all" -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Flexichick]I so hope BG is right, but I've done a lot of traveling in the past 6 months to other US cities and have had to sit at airports watching Fox News and listening to people insist that Obama is a Muslim, refuses to salute the flag, etc. It's a different world once you get away from NY/CA and other blue states
yep. I just posted an anecdote from this AM in the clinton thread - hispanic chef at work wanted clinton to win, insists he can't vote for a guy named obama hussain. his words: "his name says it all"
I think the usual dirty Republican whispering campaign rumors are going to make their rounds (funny how we never hear these rumors about Republican candidates. Hmmm.), but I think a confluence of factors will far outweigh them during this election.
The Iraq War alone is going to get Democratic voters out in droves. Not only can the Republican party not get the Iraq albatross off their back, but McSame is actually promoting his ties to, and belief in, the Iraq War. -
New alternative to "McSame" recently overheard:
Senator McPalpatine -
Boygabriel wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]yep. I just posted an anecdote from this AM in the clinton thread - hispanic chef at work wanted clinton to win, insists he can't vote for a guy named obama hussain. his words: "his name says it all"
I think the usual dirty Republican whispering campaign rumors are going to make their rounds (funny how we never hear these rumors about Republican candidates. Hmmm.),
I don't think what AFN said has anything to do with a dirty Republican whispering campaign rumor. Unfortunately. And... I seem to recall hearing plenty of these about Bush. FWIW. Like the whole cocaine thing. The drunk vid on teh interweb. Etc. *shrug* -
Should really be a landslide given the mess Bush and the republicans have made of this country in his two terms...
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eberri wrote: Should really be a landslide given the mess Bush and the republicans have made of this country in his two terms...
I remember a woman thinking that the nomination would be a landslide for her at the beginning of the primary season. And no one in the media seriously thought differently. And yet ... she lost.
Never misunderestimate the stupidity of people in large groups. -
I smell sour grapes!
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jeffrey wrote: I smell sour grapes!
I'm talkin' 'bout McCain, Willis!
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jeffrey wrote: I smell sour grapes!
I'd say more a warning of the dangers of over confidence. -
Oops!
I..
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daver wrote: I don't think what AFN said has anything to do with a dirty Republican whispering campaign rumor. Unfortunately.
That's true. I made a jump in the logic. However I do believe the "I'm not voting for someone named Hussein" bloc isn't going to be very big, especially in light of all the forces that have been driving Democrats out to vote in record breaking numbers. (Iraq, the disaster of the Bush years, dissatisfaction with Republican leadership (from both parties), the inspiration of Obama & Hillary, etc)daver wrote: And... I seem to recall hearing plenty of these about Bush. FWIW. Like the whole cocaine thing. The drunk vid on teh interweb. Etc. *shrug*
Also true. Although didn't he admit to using cocaine? I don't remember. At any rate, by and large rumors such as being a secret communist, oh, I mean secret muslim, are usually the domain of conservatives, IMO. -
So is the media ever going to bust McCain on not actually being that strong on national defense and foreign policy? Oh yeah, as eggcream reminded us, he's been in the Senate forever. IMO, that makes it all that worse that he seriously doesn't have an understanding of the fundamental differences between Sunni, Shiite, Iran and Al Qaeda.
Oh, and he doesn't have a grasp of how many troops are in Iraq, pre and post surge.
How big would these 'gaffes' be if Obama had said them? -
Boygabriel wrote: Oh, and he doesn't have a grasp of how many troops are in Iraq, pre and post surge.
Compare it to the furor (or lack thereof, depending on your viewpoint) over Obama's statement about needing Arabic translators in Afghanistan.
How big would these 'gaffes' be if Obama had said them?
And the troop number thing with McCain surpasses a gaffe. He won't fucking back down and admit that he is wrong. Or even justify his numbers somehow. It is insanity. -
An excellent rundown of just how often and how consistently wrong John McCain has been about Iraq. I'll wait patiently for the media to pick this up.
::waits::
Check the original post for original links and sources for McCain's brilliant quotes.
On the Run-Up to War
“Look, we’re going to send young men and women in harm’s way and that’s always a great danger, but I cannot believe that there is an Iraqi soldier who is going to be willing to die for Saddam Hussein, particularly since he will know that our objective is to remove Saddam Hussein from power.” (John McCain, September 15, 2002.)
“But the fact is, I think we could go in with much smaller numbers than we had to do in the past. But any military man worth his salt is going to have to prepare for any contingency, but I don’t believe it’s going to be nearly the size and scope that it was in 1991.” (John McCain, September 15, 2002.)
“He’s a patriot who has the best interests of his country at heart.” (John McCain, on Ahmed Chalabi, 2003.)
On Saddam’s Weapons of Mass Destruction
“Proponents of containment claim that Iraq is in a “box.” But it is a box with no lid, no bottom, and whose sides are falling out. Within this box are definitive footprints of germ, chemical and nuclear programs.” (John McCain, February 13, 2003.)
“I remain confident that we will find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.” (John McCain, June 11, 2003.)
On Being Greeted as Liberators
“Absolutely. Absolutely.” John McCain, asked by Chris Matthews, “you believe that the people of Iraq or at least a large number of them will treat us as liberators?” (March 12, 2003.)
“Not only that, they’ll be relieved that he’s not in the neighborhood because he has invaded his neighbors on several occasions.” John McCain, asked by Chris Matthews, “And you think the Arab world will come to a grudging recognition that what we did was necessary?” (March 12, 2003.)
“There’s no doubt in my mind that we will prevail and there’s no doubt in my mind, once these people are gone, that we will be welcomed as liberators.” (John McCain, March 24, 2003.)
On a Rapid Victory and Mission Accomplished
“I think the victory will be rapid, within about three weeks.” (John McCain, January 28, 2003.)
“It’s clear that the end is very much in sight…It won’t be long. It, it’ll be a fairly short period of time.” (John McCain, April 9, 2003.)
“We won a massive victory in a few weeks, and we did so with very limited loss of American and allied lives.” (John McCain, May 22, 2003.)
“I thought it was wrong at the time. Do I blame him for that specific banner? I can’t.” (John McCain, on President Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” speech, May 1, 2008.)
“Well, then why was there a banner that said mission accomplished on the aircraft carrier?” (John McCain, responding to assertion by Fox News’ Neil Cavuto that “many argue the conflict isn’t over,” June 11, 2003.)
“I have said a long time that reconstruction of Iraq would be a long, long, difficult process, but the conflict — the major conflict is over, the regime change has been accomplished, and it’s very appropriate.” (John McCain, June 11, 2003.)
“I’m confident we’re on the right course.” (John McCain, March 7, 2004.)
“We’re either going to lose this thing or win this thing within the next several months.” (John McCain, November 12, 2006.)
“My friends, the war will be over soon, the war for all intents and purposes although the insurgency will go on for years and years and years.” (John McCain, February 25, 2008.)
On the Safe Streets of Baghdad
“[There] there “are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods, today.” John McCain, after touring a Baghdad market wearing a bulletproof vest and guarded by “100 American soldiers, with three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships overhead, (April 1, 2007.)
“There’s problems in America with safe neighborhoods as we well know.” (John McCain, March 8, 2008.)
On President Bush and His Team
We are very fortunate that our president in these challenging days can rely on the counsel of a man who has demonstrated time and again the resolve, experience, and patriotism that will be required for success and the hard-headed clear thinking necessary to prevail in this global fight between good and evil.” (John McCain, on Dick Cheney, July 16, 2004.)
“I think he strengthened our national defenses. I think he has a good team around him.” (John McCain, on President Bush, September 3, 2004. )
“I said no. My answer is still no. No confidence.” (John McCain, on whether he had confidence in Bush Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, December 15, 2004.)
On the Non-Existent Alliance Between Al Qaeda and Iran
“But Al Qaeda is there, they are functioning, they are supported in many times, in many ways by the Iranians.” (John McCain, February 28, 2008.)
“As you know, there are al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they’re moving back into Iraq.” (John McCain, March 17, 2008.)
“[Iranian operatives are] “taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back.” (John McCain, March 18, 2008.)
“[It is] common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that’s well known. And it’s unfortunate.” (John McCain, March 18, 2008.)
“Al Qaeda and Shia extremists — with support from external powers such as Iran — are on the run but not defeated.” McCain campaign statement, (March 19, 2008.)
“To think that I would have some lack of knowledge about Sunni and Shia after my eighth visit and my deep involvement in this issue is a bit ludicrous.” (John McCain, March 19, 2008.)
“Do you still view Al Qaeda in Iraq as a major threat? Certainly not an obscure sect of the Shiites overall…” (John McCain, questioning General David Petraeus, April 8, 2008.)
On a Permanent American Military Presence in Iraq
“We cannot keep our forces indefinitely staged in the region. Were we to attempt again to contain Saddam, we would eventually have to withdraw them. The world is full of dangers and, more likely than not, we will need some of those brave men and women to face them down.” (John McCain, February 13, 2003.)
“We have had troops in South Korea for 60 years and nobody minds.” (John McCain, June 7, 2007.)
“Make it a hundred.” John McCain, told that President Bush had said American troops could remain in Iraq for 50 years, (January 3, 2008.)
“I asked McCain about his ‘hundred years’ comment, and he reaffirmed the remark, excitedly declaring that U.S. troops could be in Iraq for ‘a thousand years’ or ‘a million years,’ as far as he was concerned.” (David Corn, January 3, 2008.)
“The U.S. could have a military presence anywhere in the world for a long period of time.” (John McCain, February 20, 2008.)
“By January 2013, America has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom.” (John McCain, May 15, 2008.)
“I can tell you that it is succeeding. I can look you in the eye and tell you it’s succeeding. We have drawn down to pre-surge levels. Basra, Mosul and now Sadr city are quiet and it’s long and it’s hard and it’s tough and there will be setbacks.” John McCain, on a day when Mosul was rocked by suicide bombs and U.S. troop strength remained abve pre-surge level, (May 30, 2008.) -
A lot of that is stuff that was really a matter of opinion at the time, and only "wrong" in hindsight, which is of course 20/20. I'm sure one could find similar things said by Obama over the years that are also "wrong," and really more political grandstanding than anything.
The troop level thing is current, and flat out wrong by any measure, though. As is much of the Al Qaeda stuff he has said. -
BTW, in the interest of using my new Urban Word of the Day, there is a certain amount of premature joculation* going on here. And I'm not just talking about Obama smacking down McCain. Let us remember that he is the _presumptive_ nominee, but something could still happen between now and the end of August. Not likely, but just saying let's not start sucking his dick yet, Gentlemen.
*premature joculationThe act of celebrating an event before it has been fully resolved. Sometimes quickly followed by an embarrassing retraction when things turn out differently.
And let me add the Winston Wolf was played by Harvey Keitel, who I have on good authority has shown some serious dick in recent films. Sadly flaccid, however, I understand.
The Pulp Fiction quote by the Winston Wolf character "Let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet, Gentleman." is a great example of premature joculation. -
Yeah, I had been thinking about adding that very point to one of my prior posts (where I went into the major problems Obama still has, and where Clinton may fit in to all this), but feared that overall verbose post length would have crashed de board. :oops:
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jeffrey wrote: Yeah, I had been thinking about adding that very point to one of my prior posts (where I went into the major problems Obama still has, and where Clinton may fit in to all this), but feared that overall verbose post length would have crashed de board. :oops:
Besides, you probably would have said it without the penis references, and where is the fun in that? -
On the contrary. Your prior use of foreshadow was absolutely brilliant.
Erm..make that "foresee."
Can I get a witness...daver wrote: The future's not ours to see.
Well, I mean, it is ours to see, but just like as it unfolds and stuff. Not like foresee or anything. =D> =D> -
daver wrote: A lot of that is stuff that was really a matter of opinion at the time, and only "wrong" in hindsight, which is of course 20/20.
Nah, movie reviews are a matter of opinion. War policy is something else. Something John McCain has been regularly wrong about, over and over again.daver wrote: I'm sure one could find similar things said by Obama over the years that are also "wrong," and really more political grandstanding than anything.
Not on Iraq. But if anyone has a list of examples, I'd love to discuss it.
Iraq is possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in U.S. history, and not only did John McCain support it from the beginning, his predictions are regularly wrong, and he wants to continue it indefinitely until we achieve some kind of mystical 'victory' (which he can't actually define).
And foreign policy and national defense is his "strong point".
I'd hate to see his weaker areas. Oh yeah, his economic policy is a joke. -
daver wrote: BTW, in the interest of using my new Urban Word of the Day, there is a certain amount of premature joculation* going on here. And I'm not just talking about Obama smacking down McCain. Let us remember that he is the _presumptive_ nominee, but something could still happen between now and the end of August. Not likely, but just saying let's not start sucking his dick yet, Gentlemen.
lotta penis in that post. lol.
*premature joculationThe act of celebrating an event before it has been fully resolved. Sometimes quickly followed by an embarrassing retraction when things turn out differently.
And let me add the Winston Wolf was played by Harvey Keitel, who I have on good authority has shown some serious dick in recent films. Sadly flaccid, however, I understand.
The Pulp Fiction quote by the Winston Wolf character "Let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet, Gentleman." is a great example of premature joculation.
Anyway, yeah, obviously there could be some kind of giant scandal bigger than Rev Wright. But let me restate my original point in this post: it is my prediction that Obama wins handily. Obviously anything can happen.
This post is for the discussion thereof. -
Boygabriel wrote: Iraq is possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in U.S. history,
I totally disagree with this. I think it is a stupid war - one that should have never gotten off the ground - but we've been in more brutal, more stupid wars with far more loss of life and have supported, no, sanctioned, the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world. I'd say in the last 20-30 years, the Iraq war tied in with 9/11 hyper-absurdity, has been an extremely serious foreign policy blunder, but definitely not the worst. for reference, I give you latin america, africa and asia: regions where our blatant support of militarism and genocide have wreaked havoc on millions.
so yes, Iraq is bad. it's gross. but it's not the worst. -
Boygabriel wrote: [quote=daver]A lot of that is stuff that was really a matter of opinion at the time, and only "wrong" in hindsight, which is of course 20/20.
Nah, movie reviews are a matter of opinion. War policy is something else. Something John McCain has been regularly wrong about, over and over again.daver wrote: I'm sure one could find similar things said by Obama over the years that are also "wrong," and really more political grandstanding than anything.
Not on Iraq. But if anyone has a list of examples, I'd love to discuss it.
I'm cutting out here quick, but here is one:"On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago," Obama said during a luncheon meeting with editors and reporters of Tribune newspapers. "There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute."
July 27, 2004, Chicago Tribune
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Obama, a state senator from Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, opposed the Iraq invasion before the war. But he now believes U.S. forces must remain to stabilize the war-ravaged nation -- a policy not dissimilar to the current approach of the Bush administration. -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]Iraq is possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in U.S. history,
I totally disagree with this. I think it is a stupid war - one that should have never gotten off the ground - but we've been in more brutal, more stupid wars with far more loss of life and have supported, no, sanctioned, the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world. I'd say in the last 20-30 years, the Iraq war tied in with 9/11 hyper-absurdity, has been an extremely serious foreign policy blunder, but definitely not the worst. for reference, I give you latin america, africa and asia: regions where our blatant support of militarism and genocide have wreaked havoc on millions.
so yes, Iraq is bad. it's gross. but it's not the worst.
Well yeah. I shouldn't have used a term as broad as 'foriegn policy blunder'. There are too many ways to define that.
At any rate, in the past 10-15 years, Iraq is easily one of the biggest blunders/crimes/mistakes perpetrated by the U.S. and John McCain's record of nearly full support for it should be given full attention by the voters and the media.
A good 60-70% of Americans think Iraq was a mistake and should be ended asap. Obama was basically against the war from the beginning. John McCain still supports it. Let's hope these facts are reflected in the opinion polls. -
daver wrote: I'm cutting out here quick, but here is one:
Wow. Very interesting. I'd love to hear further comments from Obama during that period."On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago," Obama said during a luncheon meeting with editors and reporters of Tribune newspapers. "There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute."
July 27, 2004, Chicago Tribune
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Obama, a state senator from Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, opposed the Iraq invasion before the war. But he now believes U.S. forces must remain to stabilize the war-ravaged nation -- a policy not dissimilar to the current approach of the Bush administration. -
Boygabriel wrote: Wow. Very interesting. I'd love to hear further comments from Obama during that period.
I'm on my telephono until tomorrow AM, so I can't actually look stuff up. But- I'm fairly certain I can substantiate this then. First, in his Audacity of Hope book (not to bring Rev Wright into this!) he talks about watching the Sadam statue fall in Iraq and beginning to question whether he was right about the Iraq war. I'm thinking this was 2002-3? $5 says that at that time he would have signed onto McCain's statement that you classified as wrong that none of the Iraqi soldiers would fight for Sadam. In 2005-6 he talked about agreeing with increasing troop levels and the need to see the situation through. Kerry made his big push to bring the troops home in 06 I think, Obama voted against him and for further funding for increasing troop levels. Um, 2004-5 he got nailed down about his opposition to the Iraq war and if he would have voted to authorize it. He said something about that he didn't know how he would have voted if he had seen the intelligence (that McCain referred to in his "wrong" statements) and other info that he wasn't privy to.
I don't say this to say that he is a fibber or anything, I'm just saying that things change over time and statements of both McCain and Obama end up not being what they would say now, but accurately reflect what they believed at the time given the information they had access to. I think many of the McCain list you posted fall into that category. Which isn't to say that he hasn't said his share of things that are flat out wrong.
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