Rental obligations

jay b · August 2008

I have a sort of complicated rent question. I just moved out of a place in the Slope where I had paid my last month's rent upon moving into the apartment in 2004. I lived out the one year lease and have since remained in the apartment as a month-to-month tenant afterwards. This past July 1, I paid my normal rent. Then a few days later some personal stuff happened and I informed my landlord on July 15 that I intended to move out on August 15th, which he said was fine. This left us in a situation where I was fully paid for up until September 1st because I paid for July and August's (last month) rent was paid up front in '04. I stupidly assumed the landlord would give me back my money for the second half of August because I was not living in the apartment and had already given back the keys. However, I did not confirm this with the landlord and now of course he is saying he won't give that money back even though I did not live in or have access to the apartment.

I already looked up the law for month-by-month tenants and it states that I had to give 30 days notice, which is what I did. My question is: is the landlord legally obligated to give me the money for the time in which I didn't live in the apartment? It seems to me that one should not pay rent for an apartment they did not live in. I know I should have discussed this beforehand but in my haste to find a new place I neglected to do so.

plucky purcell · August 2008

the minimum 30 days notice on a converted month-to-month tenancy revolves around the payment schedule pursuant to the lapsed lease. i'm assuming that since you typically paid rent on or about the first of every month, that your monthly cycle began and ended at the actual beginning of every month (as opposed to the 15th or another date).

in short, you were likely obligated to pay through the end of August.

that being said, the fact that you surrendered possession two weeks early by giving him the keys might change things a bit (but might not).

daver · August 2008

Yah, what he said. If your landlord is cool, he could refund you half. But if your regular rental period started on July 1st, then a notification on July 15th (or any day after July 1st and before August 2nd) technically obligates you through the end of August in NYC.

modsquad · August 2008

You don't mention a security deposit. Do you need this guy as a reference? In any case you need to go over there today and take possession back. You paid for August right? Once back in he would have no other option but to start a holdover and wait a couple of months to get his apartment. You agree to leave, give written legal possession for your 2 weeks rent or some abritary number if he voids the holdover proceeding and gives you a stellar recommendation. Bring a 5 gallon can of roof cement into the apartment, tell him you're remodeling and leave the lid off for about a week. Go over there, NOW!

I know most people would find this hard to, but my experience in LL/Tenant court says that any Landlord would gladly pay to avoid starting a holdover in Part 52. If you were not given a check within 48 hours I would be surprised.

toadette · August 2008

Don't do what modsquad says. Beyond the fact that you presumably have better things to do with your time, if you become a holdover tenant then you could become liable for *more* rent in the future. Which is exactly the opposite of what you want.

The other previous posters are correct. It doesn't matter that you actually moved out before you were obligated to - when you have a month-to-month tenancy, the lease period is a full month; you can't change that by actually surrendering possession early.

Sorry you lost your money.

Hopefully you can at least get your deposit back.

jay b · August 2008

I thought about doing that holdover thing, but I don't think it would fit with my work schedule. I presume he'd change the locks whenever I left the house. I really just want the money.

What confuses me is that I spoke with him and told him I'd be leaving the 15th and he thought about it and said that would be OK. At no point did he say the place was ours til the 30th. I guess I'm just naive but I figured he wouldn't expect that I'd just be willing to part with a half month's rent and still give up access to the place. I'm tempted to go back and ask for my keys so I can go in the apartment and see if someone else is living there. That would mean he's getting two rents for the same period of time which is definitely illegal.

Fortunately i did get the security back.

landlord · August 2008

If I was your landlord I would not think twice about giving you half the rent back. Especially since it was an emergency situation. I would be grateful that you have given me a 30 days notice which would have been plenty of time for me to find someone else to occupy the space.

However, you have to realize that you need to make sure you end things on good terms with the landlord. If you go to housing court for whatever reason, it will show up on your background check when you apply for a new apartment. [b]Even if you are 100% in the right and win the court case, you will have a very hard time finding a new place with that record.

lo kee · August 2008

Plucky Purcell wrote: the minimum 30 days notice on a converted month-to-month tenancy revolves around the payment schedule pursuant to the lapsed lease. i'm assuming that since you typically paid rent on or about the first of every month, that your monthly cycle began and ended at the actual beginning of every month (as opposed to the 15th or another date).

in short, you were likely obligated to pay through the end of August.

that being said, the fact that you surrendered possession two weeks early by giving him the keys might change things a bit (but might not).

That is exactly correct.

/my 2 cents.

putnam-denizen · August 2008

Obviously you should have made this clear. But as a landlord (who requires 60 days notice to terminate the lease), I would find it difficult to find a tenant willing to move in on the 15th of the month. I'm glad your landlord returned your security (as s/he should have).

modsquad · August 2008

Toadette wrote: Don't do what modsquad says. Beyond the fact that you presumably have better things to do with your time, if you become a holdover tenant then you could become liable for *more* rent in the future. Which is exactly the opposite of what you want.

Like I said, as soon as the LL realizes what you are doing he will offer the 2 weeks. 48 hours max. There is no way he is going to fork over 3,4,5 thousand dollars to initiate a holdover. He won't lock you out, that would be highly illegal and open him up for punitive damages. You don't have to be physically in the apartment to occupy it, Jeez.

Any Tom Dick or Harry can google NYC tenant law. I think the point of opening a thread like this is to find all possibilities. Do I expect the OP to follow my advice? No not really. I've spent many years in LL/Tenant disputes and I've seen it done many times. Would I do it? I wouldn't hesitate, but it requires you to be as big an asshole as the landlord.

modsquad · August 2008

landlord wrote: However, you have to realize that you need to make sure you end things on good terms with the landlord. If you go to housing court for whatever reason, it will show up on your background check when you apply for a new apartment. [b]Even if you are 100% in the right and win the court case, you will have a very hard time finding a new place with that record.

Holdovers rarely go to trial. The parties at some point will realize the likely outcome and agree to discontinue the proceeding. Even the LL at that point or at any point, no matter how strong he thinks his case is will make monetary offers just to get the hell out of court.

putnam-denizen · August 2008

But once you have been in housing court no one will ever rent to you again. And in this example they would be right not to.

modsquad · August 2008

I think the point is, one should stand up for themselves. This is not a good example, I agree, but most LL rely on the fact that tenants are afraid to stand up for their rights. To many Landlords the end of a lease is the beginning of an "exit negotiation". Time to gobble up the deposit for damages etc. Usually a certified letter from an attorney will focus the mind of any LL. I'm not a militant tenant's advocate, I work with both LLs and tenants and to that end I've spent a lot of time in disputes between the two. No matter what you might say or hear, it is and always has been an adversarial relationship. Leases are written for LL's benefit and the courts are there for the tenant's benefit. Most decisions in Landlord/tenant court are made in the hallways, not in the court room, therefore there is no "record" or "data base" with your name entered. This is Brooklyn, you have to push a little or you will get shoved.

putnam-denizen · August 2008

If you are named as a defendant in a hold-over action, your name is on a list. Protect yourself - avoid litigation. And this case, as modsquad acknowledges is more an example of a tenant assuming rather than verifying.

wirenut · August 2008

landlord wrote: If I was your landlord I would not think twice about giving you half the rent back. Especially since it was an emergency situation. I would be grateful that you have given me a 30 days notice which would have been plenty of time for me to find someone else to occupy the space.

However, you have to realize that you need to make sure you end things on good terms with the landlord. If you go to housing court for whatever reason, it will show up on your background check when you apply for a new apartment. [b]Even if you are 100% in the right and win the court case, you will have a very hard time finding a new place with that record.

I'm with him, and would give the half-month back if they were a good tenant, hell even a ordinary tenant.

Whenever a tenant leaves without owing me money, I break open the champagne.

xlizellx · August 2008

i left 3 weeks before my lease was up because my new place was ready early ... my landlord said i would get nothing back but my security deposit since he couldn't rent out the place until the end of the month anyway. so i left june 7 and i had paid until july 1. i had to eat those 3 weeks - i don't think there is any way to get that money back unless you were paying on a weekly basis and had paid extra weeks. i paid for the month of june and my leaving early was my decision. i chose to give back the keys early. you could have kept them as well - once the keys are given back and the security deposit is returned there is nothing more you can do - you can't claim that space.

at least that's what i found in my research.

carnivore · August 2008

xlizellx wrote: i left 3 weeks before my lease was up because my new place was ready early ... my landlord said i would get nothing back but my security deposit since he couldn't rent out the place until the end of the month anyway. so i left june 7 and i had paid until july 1. i had to eat those 3 weeks - i don't think there is any way to get that money back unless you were paying on a weekly basis and had paid extra weeks. i paid for the month of june and my leaving early was my decision. i chose to give back the keys early. you could have kept them as well - once the keys are given back and the security deposit is returned there is nothing more you can do - you can't claim that space.

at least that's what i found in my research.

Yeah, when I moved out of my last place, which was rent stabilized, I was not able to convince the landlord to let me out of the lease a month early. So I kept the keys until the last day of the lease. Especially if you have a rent stabilized place, it definitely doesn't pay to give them the keys until you have in writing that you're no longer responsible for further rent. Otherwise they'll be able to access your place and do renovations that will enable them to raise the rent significantly for the next tenant, while not even losing out on that rent while they do the renovations. Win-win for them and lose-lose for you.

Rental obligations

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