landlord dispute - advice?
my landlord received half of the rent for august later than the 10-day maximum stipulated in the lease agreement (boyfriend was out of the country and his wire transfer was delayed) and is now retaliating. we have elected not to renew our lease, which expires october 31st, for various reasons: the apartment is overpriced, and the landlord, who is also a fellow tenant in the building, has been doing construction on his apartment for the last several months, which has resulted in a filthy communal stairwell area, noise during weekdays and starting early on weekends, and obstruction of the communal garden by debris (plasterboard, wood pieces, etc.) from his apartment. he ignored several phone calls and a letter from us asking him to please make sure that the communal spaces were clean and cleared for access. now he is slipping increasingly threatening notes under our door (hasn't made any attempts to call, and has refused my suggestion that we meet face-to-face to discuss the situation in a mature, civilized fashion), insisting that we pay the rent for september within the next 3 days or else he will pursue "legal action." we have elected not to pay the last 2 months' rent because he is already holding that amount, as we were required to pay first and last months' rent and a security deposit (equal to one month's rent) upon signing the lease. we are concerned that, considering the letters he has been sending accusing us of "breach of contract" because one half of one month's rent was late and we "occasionally housed animals" (we babysit our friend's extremely clean, calm and silent dog for one night). this is a first-time landlord and he is obviously extremely nervous, and we in turn are concerned that we won't see any of our deposit money unless we use that money to pay this month's rent. the apartment is in perfect condition and there is nothing that the landlord will have to do to rent out the apartment once we leave in two months. all told, we have paid all the rent that is due and we will leave the apartment in pristine condition. does he have any actual legal recourse? by all accounts thus far, he doesn't, but i would like to know if anyone thinks we need to change our locks (he has keys), seek legal counsel, or write some nasty letters of our own. I would, of course, prefer to speak to him face-to-face and resolve this issue like adults (and fellow tenants!), but our landlord does not seem amenable to this idea, electing instead to slip signed letters under our door in lieu of direct communication. does he have a leg to stand on or should we just wait it out two more months until the lease is up and we are out?
any input would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
any input would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
Comments
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I would just wait it out. Any legal action that he would take would get caught up in the whole court process for way more than two months. Plus, it's really not that big a deal that your rent is a little late. This happens everywhere all the time. As long as you pay pretty soon, you don't have a problem. No court, especially one in NYC, would waste its time on this.
What could be a problem is that you intend to use a security deposit as a month's rent. I had a similar problem recently (you may have seen my post) and all the research I did said that the security deposit absolutely cannot count as a month's rent. You have a good reason to believe this guy will try to rip you off on your deposit, but I wouldn't recommend trying to use the security deposit as rent because apparently it's illegal. -
If he deposited your late rent check then he has given up any legal recourse. He "tacitly" approves of you paying the rent late.
A landlord has no legal right to enter the apartment unless it is a true emergency. He could be arrested and you could sue him. Change the lock if you feel safer. You could simply take the existing cylinder out and have it repinned, the cheapest thing to do.
What Jay B says is true about the courts. It would take him months to actually get an order of eviction and then another month to get the marshal to serve it. I would further muddy the waters with a certified letter listing the problems you have suffered, the rights lost, etc. and copy a lawyer (any lawyer). The dog is not an issue. He was visiting. the fact that the LL is even talking about it shows how little he knows about the law. Which I guess leads me to think that you might want to change the locks. Oh yea, of course don't pay the rent. -
You could contact a tenant attorney for advice. From what I have read Jay B is essentially right in that the courts aren't going to worry about a landlord tenant dispute where the tenant intends to vacate at the end of a soon to expire lease. The major issue you could face is if the landlord decides to report your rent as past due to a credit reporting agency, that could really screw up both yours and you boyfriends credit score. The other issue you will face is that if you are looking to rent another apartment the new landlord will want a reference from the old one. Changing the locks is pointless as your lease undoubtedly requires you to supply the landlord with a copy of the keys.
Your landlord probably does have recourse re the unpaid rent. The security deposit is really to cover any damage that you do to the apartment. By the sounds of it though, you will have a hard time getting a refund of your security deposit anyway. I imagine that you are going to live through a few weeks of hell and then move to a new apartment.
I think it is high time that New York State revisited the residential tenancy law and required that security deposits be lodged with a state agency and that landlords have to provide evidence of damage to make a claim against that deposit. -
Pretty much what has already been said. The animal thing is a non-issue, as far as your current concerns go. He has no right to enter the apartment or anything without a lot of ado. It is technically illegal to use your security deposit as the last month's rent, unless it is written that way in your lease. Having said that, it _is_ fairly common and unlikely to cause you any trouble. It puts the shoe on the other foot, landlords are notoriously difficult to extract the security deposit from in general, by using it as your last months rent, you force _them_ to have to come after you for anything. The downside of this is that you probably won't be able to use them as a good reference, but it doesn't sound like there is any danger of this guy being a good reference anyhow, lol!
Make sure that you give notice in writing that you are leaving Oct. 31 no later than Sept. 30.
So yah, he can "pursue legal action" regarding the September rent, and he might even win, but it likely won't be anywhere by the time you leave on Oct. 31, so it will be a non-issue. If you are worried about him returning your security deposit and you don't need him as a reference, then the way you are going is probably the way to do it, despite being slightly illegal.
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addendum: take pictures of the apartment before you leave. Even better, invite him in the day you are vacating for an inspection and take pictures with him in the apartment. Change the locks if you feel safer. It is a minor issue legally and how would he know you changed them unless he tried to open your door. Even with a locksmith standing in the hallway, does not require you to admit anything to him.
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daver wrote: . It is technically illegal to use your security deposit as the last month's rent, unless it is written that way in your lease. Having said that, it _is_ fairly common and unlikely to cause you any trouble. .
Uhmmmm, not quite .
So yah, he can "pursue legal action" regarding the September rent, and he might even win, but it likely won't be anywhere by the time you leave on Oct. 31, so it will be a non-issue.
a)I cannot recall ever seeing a lease that read the security could be used as last month. You actually have paid "last month" (october)
b)despite the fact the renters carp about getting back security , they tend to forget that their 2000 dollars represents hmmm 1/2 of 1 percent of the sales value of the apt. seriously, if you think one month rent can cover the damages a nutjob can cause youre seriously bad at mathematics.
most importantly,
whether or not the LL gets the tenant into court by the moveout date is not relevant. LL can file nonpayment, eventually send it to collections , and eventually haul you into court. so what you say ? even if you legally satisfy the judgement the fact that you went 30/60/90 days late will appear on your credit report and so will the judgement. the fact that it was legally satisfied is not particularly relevant to lendors. all they see is someone had to sue your deadbeat ass.
good luck with that car loan
hope you dont want a mortgage anytime in the next 10 years either .
So basically its only a non issue if the LL decides not to bother pursuing,
which doesnt sound likely,
or you simply dont give a crap about your credit rating for the next 10 years.
suggest you at least check out tenant.net and maybe talk to a real estate lawyer. -
Garfunky wrote: Uhmmmm, not quite .
I've had one. *shrug* It is in a file still somewhere.
a)I cannot recall ever seeing a lease that read the security could be used as last month.b)despite the fact the renters carp about getting back security , they tend to forget that their 2000 dollars represents hmmm 1/2 of 1 percent of the sales value of the apt. seriously, if you think one month can cover the damages a nutjob can cause youre seriously bad at mathematics.
Which is apropos of nothing.most importantly,
There will be NO nonpayment. What is the landlord going to sue for, exactly? Sept. rent will be paid with the last month's rent. Oct. rent will be paid with the security deposit. The tenant has stated that the apartment is immaculate and will need nothing for re-renting = no damages. So where is this judgment and suit on the "deadbeat ass" coming in exactly, pray tell?
whether or not the LL gets the tenant into court by the moveout date is not relevant. LL can file nonpayment, eventually send it to collections , and eventually haul you into court. so what you say ? even if you legally satisfy the judgement the fact that you went 30/60/90 days late will appear on your credit report and so will the judgement. the fact that it was legally satisfied is not particularly relevant to lendors. all they see is someone had to sue your deadbeat ass.
good luck with that car loan ;0
hope you dont want a mortgage anytime in the net 10 years either ... -
Daver is right for LL to sue for breach he would have to return security as his part of contract. If he actually returns it then you pay the rent with it. Take the pictures. Beyond normal wear and tear he would have to show damage and repairs (receipts).
Further more if it wasn't for tenants standing up for their rights there would be no Tenant protections at all. There are hundreds of LL/Tenant cases a week in NYC. Your saying all these people are doomed to bad credit? Show a little backbone and stop telling people to bend over!
I work with both LLs and tenants
PM me if you want a honest tenant lawyer. He'll give you a phone conf. and you'll be an expert too. -
modsquad wrote: Daver is right for LL to sue for breach he would have to return security as his part of contract. If he actually returns it then you pay the rent with it. Take the pictures. Beyond normal wear and tear he would have to show damage and repairs (receipts).
LOL last month rent is clearly stated in the lease yes ?
Further more if it wasn't for tenants standing up for their rights there would be no Tenant protections at all. There are hundreds of LL/Tenant cases a week in NYC. Your saying all these people are doomed to bad credit? Show a little backbone and stop telling people to bend over!
last month is OCTOBER
tenant was late with august rent
tenant has unilaterally decided not to pay sept and that security is september
LL starts proceedings for sept rent NOW.
done legally , he will get a JUDGEMENT saying he doesn have to return the security, which is then on your credit.
go to tenant.net and talk to a lawyer
simply taking the advice that there will be absolutley no negative repercussions would be an egregious display of naivety. -
LL took late rent therefore it is a non issue. He can't have it both ways. either he gives them back their check and says it's late or he deposits it. If LL simply keeps security for the last two months and the apartment is in good shape then he has no financial lose to sue for. There is no judge sitting in LL/Tenant court who will even entertain hearing this dispute. If LL is so spiteful that he starts proceedings now what is he suing for? Legally the rent would not be considered late, LL has already violated the terms of the lease by taking late rent. If a 3 day notice comes in the next month all they would have to answer is with a statement as to the unsafe conditions therefore we are withholding rent. It would be a stalemate. All this would be against a background of lawyers legal fees and the grinding slow motion of the courts. Any lawyer would consul their client to walk away. How could LL file late payment with Credit co. on the last 2 months of rent? he already has the money in the bank. The security deposit is not relevant anymore because the lease has expired.
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modsquad wrote: LL took late rent therefore it is a non issue. He can't have it both ways. either he gives them back their check and says it's late or he deposits it. If LL simply keeps security for the last two months and the apartment is in good shape then he has no financial lose to sue for. There is no judge sitting in LL/Tenant court who will even entertain hearing this dispute. If LL is so spiteful that he starts proceedings now what is he suing for? Legally the rent would not be considered late, LL has already violated the terms of the lease by taking late rent. If a 3 day notice comes in the next month all they would have to answer is with a statement as to the unsafe conditions therefore we are withholding rent. It would be a stalemate. All this would be against a background of lawyers legal fees and the grinding slow motion of the courts. Any lawyer would consul their client to walk away. How could LL file late payment with Credit co. on the last 2 months of rent? he already has the money in the bank. The security deposit is not relevant anymore because the lease has expired.
The AUGUST rent was late and LL accepted payment.
The September rent is being withheld.
The October Rent was paid in advance.
Security is Security.
Renter wishes to use Security as September rent, which is not in accord with the lease, and the LL is not agreeing.
here is whats in one of the "boilerplate" blumberg leases
15. Tenant's defaults and Landlord's remedies
A. Landlord may give 5 days written notice to Tenant to correct any of the following defaults:
1. Failure to pay rent or added rent on time.
2. Improper assignment of the Lease, improper subletting all or part of the Apartment.
3. Improper conduct by Tenant or other occupant of the Apartment.
4. Failure to fully perform any other term in the Lease.
B. If Tenant fails to correct the defaults in section A. within the 5 days, Landlord may cancel the Lease by giving Tenant a written 3 day notice stating the date the Term will end. On that date the Term and Tenant's rights in this Lease automatically end and Tenant must leave the Apartment and give Landlord the keys. Tenant continues to be responsible for rent, expenses, damages and losses.
C. If the Lease is cancelled, or rent or added rent is not paid on time, or Tenant vacates the Apartment, Landlord may in addition to other remedies take any of the following steps:
1. Enter the Apartment and remove Tenant and any person or property;
2. Use dispossess, eviction or other lawsuit method to take back the Apartment.
D. If the Lease is ended or Landlord takes back the Apartment, rent and added rent for the unexpired Term becomes due and payable. Landlord may re-rent the Apartment and any thing in it for any Term. Landlord may re-rent for a lower rent and give allowances to the new Tenant. Tenant shall be responsible for Landlord's cost of re-renting. Landlord's cost shall include the cost of repairs, decorations, broker's fees, attorney's fees, advertising and preparation for renting. Tenant shall continue to be responsible for rent, expenses, damages and losses. Any rent received from the re-renting shall be applied to the reduction of money Tenant owes. Tenant waives all rights to return to the Apartment after possession is given to the Landlord by a Court.
renter has withheld sept.
LL HAS given WRITTEN notice. The fact that hes already taking steps to do things in writing as opposed to having a "chat" suggests he is not going to just have a friendly chat about why renter thinks they shouldnt pay him.
Use of a communal area is not necessarily "rent" unless its specifically written that way in the lease.
"tenant shall pay x rent for use of apt # x and garden at xx address street"
vs
"tenant shall pay rent for apt # x at xx address street"
Failure to remedy a default in Section A within the 5 days after the LL has provided written notice of allows him to legally move on to Section B.
LL does not have to wait another 2 months to start non pay on SEPTEMBER rent. he can do that in 2 days if rent remains unpaid.
Whether he does that, when it gets there, what happens with a judge is all speculative.
The fact remains that negative repercusions are a possibility.
op should talk to tenant net or lawyer.
not random individuals on a social board that likens itself to stoop-gossip. -
A note under the door is not written notice signed or not.
Further more it is obvious you have never been in LL/Tenent court.
To simply regurgetate boilerplate is useless advice. Anybody can google that. I am not a lawyer, but I have spent a lot of time in the middle of these disputes and offer advice based on 20 odd years of that. Like I said I work with both small LLs and tenants and without a doubt I can say that in the long run both LLs and tenants see the courts as a common enemy and resolve their issues in the hallways. A thread like this is a starting point. Depending upon the OP's nerve they can proceed a number of different ways.
I liken this "social board" to a large party in a noisy bar. Conversation changes and much is heard and not heard. It is up to the individual drinker to decide how drunk they are and what advice they will take.
I did offer a name of a lawyer previously. -
Apparently you dont know anyone with a judgement on their record and how it got there(hint - they thought they could withhold rent)
And i dont have to google blank leases that are in my PC. :P -
modsquad wrote: I liken this "social board" to a large party in a noisy bar. Conversation changes and much is heard and not heard. It is up to the individual drinker to decide how drunk they are and what advice they will take.
ack sorry for the dreaded double post.
I did offer a name of a lawyer previously.
Also Sorry you seem to be taking this personally, because its not meant that way. Ive seen tenants get hurt because they follow the advice of their stupid friend from alaska who doesnt know jack shit about nyc realestate law.
Your description of this social board actually serves to strengthen my point.
when you need legal advice , Im certain you dont normally seek the advice of "denatured" individuals at a large party in a noisy bar . -
Let me be clear, the plan the OP proposes is without a doubt illegal. It is not legal to use the security as the last months rent. Having said that, it is far from uncommon. It is possible that they could get a judgment on their record, but this is NOT a case of withholding rent. The money is there. The OP would be playing the odds that even if the landlord pursued a case, that they would be out and square before it went anywhere. It is taking a risk, true. I don't think it is a huge one though. The riskless way would be for the OP to pay Sept., use the last months as Oct., and file to get the security back. *shrug*
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If the LL took this contract to a Credit Co., what part of the contract remains unsatisfied? All money will have been paid by the end of the lease. It doesn't matter if you call it security or not if LL keeps it to fulfill the contract then the tenant has fulfilled his obligation.
Garfunky, I ask you if we shouldn't take legal advice from a social blog why are you offering and/or arguing the issues. It's sorta like saying it's my ball and if I can't win then I'm taking it home. -
modsquad wrote: If the LL took this contract to a Credit Co., what part of the contract remains unsatisfied? All money will have been paid by the end of the lease. It doesn't matter if you call it security or not if LL keeps it to fulfill the contract then the tenant has fulfilled his obligation.
If the landlord were able to obtain a judgment before the end of October, that is the window for official *blot* ickiness. -
How would he obtain that judgment? Not through the courts. This lease will have long expired before it ends up there.
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modsquad wrote: How would he obtain that judgment? Not through the courts. This lease will have long expired before it ends up there.
I agree. Reality vs. hypothetical. OP is technically in breach from Sept. 10 through Oct. 31 though. FWIW. Squared on Oct. 31, plus any damages being paid. -
furthermore, if LL was lucky enough to serve a non payment before the end of the lease you go into court wait for your name to be called and respectfully ask for a 30 day continuance. End of lease. If need be sight some examples of the deplorable condition you are living under and the judge will order a building inspector or health inspector to investigate. More time.
A one time continuance is granted without question. -
modsquad wrote: If the LL took this contract to a Credit Co., what part of the contract remains unsatisfied? All money will have been paid by the end of the lease. It doesn't matter if you call it security or not if LL keeps it to fulfill the contract then the tenant has fulfilled his obligation.
a) the sept rent is late as of the 5th.
Garfunky, I ask you if we shouldn't take legal advice from a social blog why are you offering and/or arguing the issues. It's sorta like saying it's my ball and if I can't win then I'm taking it home.
b) IF reported it will be in 30 days on oct1
c) which means its in 60 days on Nov 1
d) IF there is ACTUALLY no damage then the security pays the sept rent 60 days late and a deragatory is on the ops credit for 10 years showing that he paid the bill 60 days late. GET IT ?
as to the second part
how many times have i said TENANT.NET or LAWYER ?
do i need to say it again ? i am not dispensing advice,
i am pointing out possibilities.
as opposed to you saying go ahead dont pay, nothing will happen.
its remarkably easy to advise another to have a backbone and stand up to the man when its not YOUR future that could be affected.
seems to me youre more concerned about who is right or wrong.
rather giving a shit about whether or not the OP might have their credit fucked.
But hey what do you care, youre just a drunk at a large party in a noisy bar. -
Garfunky wrote: a) the sept rent is late as of the 5th.
11th, according to OP. FWIW.b) IF reported it will be in 30 days on oct1
It's seven years, not ten, FWIW.
c) which means its in 60 days on Nov 1
d) IF there is ACTUALLY no damage then the security pays the sept rent 60 days late and a deragatory is on the ops credit for 10 years showing that he paid the bill 60 days late. GET IT ?
Yes that _could_ happen, and should definitely be considered. However, according to the OP, the landlord is a new first time landlord. Somehow, I really doubt he is a member of any of the big credit agencies. Further, this item could DEFINITELY be disputed, should it appear on the report. (Well, actually _any_ item can be disputed, but this one would have the benefit of being a valid dispute.)rather giving a shit about whether or not the OP might have their credit fucked.
I snipped most of that because I don't think it was for me, but regardless of what happens here, it is extremely unlikely that the OP will have their credit fucked. Like you said above, the worst is likely a late pay, hardly a credit fucking. Not even really a credit fingering, for that matter. -
A jeroboam of Guinness for everyone. :cheers: Except you Garfunky, you get the Heinekin Light!
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