In defense of St Johns Place
Comments
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Subject: I'm Real...I exist...
Hello Neighbors:
I'm definitely not a troll and I do live in the neighborhood. I'm one you see wearing the brown hoodie that boldy proclaims, "Gentrification Sucks." I really wasn't trying to piss everyone off, but instead just expressed my opinion. Fortunatley, I don't feel the need to attack or debate with folks who don't agree with me...Its okay for one to express opinion, isn't it? And for the record, I wasn't laughing at people who are attacked in the nabe, but I was laughing at those who move into funky buildings thinking all of the problems will simply disappear because they're on the scene...it just doesn't work that way. As someone who's worked her way up from the street, I just find it odd/quirky/weird/strange/funny that white people move into apartment buildings that even most black folks don't wanna live in. And really, the only people benefitting are the landlords who are happy to charge you $1400 for a hellhole that's in disrepair. Why would you live there if you don't have to? Help me understand that....
8) And guess what? While I may have a constitutional right to venture into Bensonhurst, common sense tells me its not a smart thing to do...And while it may be difficult to digest, many of the People of Color in Prospect Heights don't like white people. Why? Because you come into our communities and act as if we don't exist. You come in like colonizers and expect to "take back" a neighborhood that doesn't belong to you...Your condescention is evident and thick---trust me. I'm sure I've seen many of you in the nabe---You're the ones that look at me like I don't belong in the neighborhood that I've inhabited for 10 years...You're the ones that cross the street when you see me. Some of you are those people who assume that every guy sitting on the stoop is dealing drugs. Have you considered that many of them don't have AC and its hot inside? Or maybe there's no electricity, or maybe the apartment is so rundown that they simply don't want to be in there... If you don't understand what I'm saying, pick up a copy of James Baldwin's "Invisible Man," and read it. Let me be clear---I have friends of all hues, ethnicities, nationalities, and sexual orientations, but I am also clear on the politics of racism and classism in America. I am also well versed on the politics of Gentrification and have published extensively on the topic. And for the naysayers---yes, its true. I have travelled all around this country and have witnessed Gentrification (oooh, I said it!) in hoods all over the country---SF, New Orleans, Chicago, Cleveland...I know what it feels like, looks like, and sounds like, and while you may expect people to be happy to see our neighborhoods whitewashed, we're not. We don't want to be colonized, patronized or fixed. And most important, we don't want to be ignored or disrespected. The next time you see a Black person you don't know, try saying hello or nodding your head in recognition instead of crossing the street, grabbing your purse, or acting like you don't see us...
Peace. I'm out.
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Subject: Posted Twice...Sorry...
My bad...oh yeah, you can't use that here...
I sincerely regret to inform you that I have posted twice. Except my most humble apolgies...
Fixed! --EmilyM
How's that? -
Sister speaks the truth!
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the truth hurts.
it seems that we all have a little to worry about. the white men in suits are coming. anyone catch the nyt article yesterday where they discuss turning downtown brooklyn (all the way to dean and vanderbilt) into the 4th largest and tallest city in the country. we're all going to be on out on our asses in 5 years. black, white and purple people... -
well there's a new proposal on the board:
http://ltjbukem.blogspot.com/2005/07/11th-hour-heroics-from-develop-dont.html -
richblackgirl, I see what you mean about people moving into a neighborhood and assuming that their mere presence will change the habits of others--naive at best. But this caught my eye:
You're the ones that cross the street when you see me.
For real? I'm not a "street-crosser" in general but I don't think I've ever seen a woman who made me want to cross the street. Who are these people who avoid you? rhodamine's aforementioned wimps? Or are you particularly intimidating in some way that you haven't disclosed? :P
Also, when it comes to gentrification, surely there are some aspects of it that everyone can agree on? Okay, some people like outdoor loudness and others don't, but having more restaurants is nice.
In any case, I think you'll find that the people who go to the trouble of participating in a neighborhood discussion board are mostly the open-minded ones who are already greeting people as you suggested. -
Subject: rbg/racism/gentrification and all that other fun stuff
RBG, I was born 30 years ago in predominantly black Fort Greene and have spent virtually my entire life there, but I'm white. Did I gentrify the neighborhood at birth? Or am I somehow exempt from the "you outsider you're taking over my neighborhood" charge? Oh, and my parents were dirt poor, but you are, in your own words, rich, drive a BMW and live in a great apt, and furthermore moved in a mere 10 years ago. Wouldn't that mean that you gentrified the neighborhood?
Look, don't get me wrong, I hear you. In fact, in a bizarre way, even though I'm white, I have felt pretty much the same thing you're describing as I've watched Fort Greene hipster-ize. And no, I'm not black, so the hipsters don't cross the street when they see me, but the black residents glare at me like I'm one of the newcomers, which kind of irks me. I wasn't aware that black people were the original owners of the hood, anyway. Wasn't this area predominantly Irish and Italian before blacks moved in? And didn't it belong to Native Americans before everyone?
On the subject of crime and who gets targeted, if you really grew up in the streets as you claim, you should know that it's the weak that get picked on, regardless of color. When I was a scrawny 10 year-old all the neighborhood bullies wanted my lunch money, and I don't think it was because I colonized them or didn't "respect" them. By the time I was 15 they left me alone because I was 6'3", and they've left me alone since. As for my best friend at the time who happened to be black, he went through the exact same thing. -
You don't deserve to be flamed for sharing your experience here, daveb.
RBG, with your enthusiasm for conspicuous consumption, you are clearly a gentrifier, not a gentrifiee, your curriculum vitae and the melanin content of your skin notwithstanding. -
Subject: jp
daveb,
what is there not to appreciate? people of all colors are attracted to ppl of all other colors..i know i am, in nyc especially.
not sure why your gf was so offended. if someone said that ecuadoran men are attracted to caucasian women, why is that something to be offended by? is it taboo to be attracted to black men? i don't think so. -
Carnivore wrote: RBG, with your enthusiasm for conspicuous consumption, you are clearly a gentrifier, not a gentrifiee, your curriculum vitae and the melanin content of your skin notwithstanding.
its so true... -
Subject: Re: I'm Real...I exist...
Richblackgirl wrote: You're the ones that look at me like I don't belong in the neighborhood that I've inhabited for 10 years...You're the ones that cross the street when you see me.
wow, thats the most fucked up thing ive read all day... id be alot more cool with your opinion if you didnt say reactionary shit like this to people you dont know. how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you talk so aggressively is beyond me. youre the one with the bmw and the pocket fulla nouveau riche cash, yo. odds are it would be you crossing the street to avoid me if we passed in the dark of the night on a vacant sidewalk, so i dont really buy this "im a victim of prejudice and gentrification" BS.
but my little flame notwithstanding, who exactly is this "youre the ones..." that you speak of? hipsters? gentrifiers? white people?
talking like that makes you one of the very prejudiced people youre attempting to diss here. it doesnt matter what race or sex or income level you are. singling one group out as good/bad/innocent/gentrifer/etc smacks of the "you dont know me! i do what i want!" attitude thats more akin to a jerry springer show than a neighborhood messageboard. were all just trying to coexist in a nice neighborhood here, like any open-minded, modern-thinking person should be able to do. no one's specifically trying to offend you here, and it seems as if the only person singling out anyone by race is you. whats up with that?? dissing a mugger is one thing. talking about white people invading PH, well, thats offensively tangential.
read this if you dont get what im talking about:Howard wrote: Let's see how Richblackgirl's post reads in reverse:
:shock:
Sometimes I laugh at the black people who come to our nice quiet neighborhood in Howard Beach. Common sense should tell you that the mobsters sitting in front of the pizza place and the teenage thugs dealing weed on the corner aren't going to disappear just because our highschool teachers told us "racism is bad". Like the smell of garlic and aregano, the boyz in the beach are here to stay. Either get used to it, or move to the projects.....black people think it's cool to pretend they can leave the ghetto, but then get freaked out when bat-wielding gangs chase them into the street. Face it, when you come to the beach, you become a moving target. When you wear baggy jeans and sneakers, you're a target. When your headphones are buzzing with hip hop beats, you're a target. When you're prowling the beach looking for cars to steal, you're a target. When you turn up your nose and act like you don't see your white neighbors, you're a target. I make six figures, drive a BMW (and a ninja), own a gorgeous beach house, and probably served more time in the can than most of the whiners on this list--but unlike you, I'm not a target. The mobsters watch my car instead of vandalize and say hello--why? Because I've got blond hair and big tits so they respect me. And I also respect them. Trust me, people don't become fat, chain-wearing thugs because they wanna be...like you, they're also victims of circumstance. If you think any of these guys wanna randomly chase innocent black teenagers through the streets in a crazed, racist fervor, get a clue...the pay isn't so hot and the benefits suck!
Gee, on second thought this post seems awfully racist...but I'm sure Richblackgirl didn't mean it that way. -
Subject: wow
I think that this thread has taken on an unfortunately natural progression of thought and feelings that arise in regards to complex racial and class issues. We do have to take into account that, for the most part, we don't all know each other and what is being said are impressions ignited by brief synopsis of other people's brief impressions. This isn't an ideal forum for an in depth discussion of such topics because it is so annoymous and only allows for little snipits of thought to be shared. I think, however, it is enlightning and valuable for these discussions to take place. Daveb - I really think that the responses posted here that negatively refer to your shitty experience shouldn't be taken too seriously. I know that's easier said that done, but really it's only a few people who are narrowly reacting to your experiece as if it were an exercise in a race relations class. Things, as you know, are more complicated than that. Thank you for sharing your personal story with us and letting us see that there is more to the white man walking down the street than just that. It is also a person with a history and a compilation of experiences. Personally, RBG, in my opinion, is a very conflicted and embittered person. She is not an accurate representation of the people in this neighborhood - black, hispanic, or any other damn color. Her own thoughts are conflicting - she may be a representation of a person not secure in her self or her role in life - but that representation can be seen in any color and in any circumstance. People who are truly secure in themselves don't feel it necessary to make sure everyone knows how much money they have and how many things they have acquired or what their so-called accomplishments are. She has written very little that resembles true substance or value - except to exemplify how desperate she is not to be seen as a person with very little feelings of genuine self-worth - which I strongly suspect is her primary issue. I also stronly hope that people reading her responses don't assume that what she says is accurate in regards to how other black people think about white people in the neighborhood we all share. I think she just finds it easier to pin her own inadequacies on white people and "gentrification" than to look at the larger issues. Yea, gentrification is for real but it's a more complex issue than just white people coming into a neighborhood and "trying to take it over". It does deserve attention and an honest social dialogue but I'm not sure that that really can happen with people who react and generalize based on their own narrowed assumptions of what they believe other people must be thinking while their walking down the street. -
What strikes me as strange is that the previous poster states:
"We do have to take into account that, for the most part, we don't all know each other and what is being said are impressions ignited by brief synopsis of other people's brief impressions."
But then this same poster goes into a personal attack of RichBlackGirl contradicting what he or she had just said.
I agree in that we don't know ANYTHING about the histories, struggles, and experiences of any of the people we are dealing with. This makes it hard and somewhat personal to be speaking about complex issues of class and race in that everyone here seems to be trying to "prove" their credentials to be talking about the subject, as well as their particular version of reality as they see it in the neighborhood.
Is is horrible that anyone in our neighborhood is a victim of a crime? Yes, of course, and trying to either state that the victim deserved it, or that the criminals (and by extension all people of color) are victimizers really breezes through much more complex issues, not to mention identities, and is just a reforming of racist ideas on all sides. But what is clear to me is the anger in this post directed at "the other." I think it would be more productive to figure out what this anger is about instead of merely acting it out on each other. -
lunchmeat wrote: I agree in that we don't know ANYTHING about the histories, struggles, and experiences of any of the people we are dealing with.
...which makes it doubly stupid for any of us to criticize another about our differences.
however, by that same guideline, i think that rbg's original comment was way off-base. anyone responding to it with a passion is probably only doing so cause they got pissed off reading her shit from the get-go.
i know that was the case with me.
so how about those mets?!? *tries to change subject* -
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
-Martin Luther King
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
-Socrates
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure.
-Mark Twain
(thanks Oxford Dictionary of Modern Quotations) -
whoa. this thread has made a turn for the worse...
and i don't know what is more repulsive, so take your pick:
1. the implication that brooklyn neighborhoods should remain segregated
2. the idea that a wealthy bmw-driving black woman does less to gentrify a neighborhood than my poor, carless, in debt up to my eyeballs, white face. (of course i can't even afford to live in such swank digs as prospect heights.)
please lady, tell me you aren't just trent lott in disguise?
:roll: -
Subject: Time to give it a rest.
Dave B's last post was beautiful and compelling.
The issues of crime, community, gentrification, an co-existence are important ones and certainly worthy of productive discussion, but why not give it a rest until a time when cooler heads can prevail?
The anonymity of the Net is no excuse for bad behavior. -
Along with class and race, obviously this thread and the events described deal with several other socio-animal-human instincts including territorial defense mechanisms. Humans maintain this innate instinct for survival. A 'tribe' (social group or in this case, neighborhood) might reject; or welcome and entertain, but usually won't allow community membership without a passage of time, adaptation, initiation, social relationships, or proven committment. Not that this is right or proper, it just exists and is partial basis for war, prejudice, crime, genocide, and many social and global problems.
Change is part of life. People come and go, neighborhoods change, and environments change. If threatened by change, people tend to become defensive and act out with negative emotions including anger, frustration, depression, and even physical hostility. In our wayward journey, some obtain the luxury of 'comfort', or similarly 'belonging', in their surroundings (even in the presence of "cockroaches, mice, brothas smoking weed, blasting music," and etc.). When one's comfort is threatened or disrupted that territorial defense mechanism can raise it's head and provoke negativity.
In attempt to be a positive human being, it is necessary to regard change as not primarily a negative exponent of existence, but to also realize that good can arise. Of course, housing displacement and homelessness are not good results of change, nor are crimes and hatred. But, the sharing of culture, education, science & technology, spirituality and even genes have evolved and driven our race to soaring heights (in the big picture).
The overall message that I'm trying to provide is that while this neighborhood is undergoing drastic change, we should try discover among each other solutions and possibilities for positive and good existence to outweigh the bad and negative. While these discussions have rared distasteful comments and emotions, it (hopefully) serves the purpose of communication and understanding thereby lending to (hopefully) a positive community and life experience. -
On a lighter note...
I keep thinking of that 1981 made-for-TV-movie classic starring John Schneider... "Dream House."
The one where the carpenter, living out of his camper, fights to build a house in an empty NYC lot, fights for acceptance among the locals, and seeks approval from the love of his life. Not that I'm in his position, but what a compelling story of hope and heroism. -
Subject: Re: I'm Real...I exist...
Richblackgirl wrote: Hello Neighbors:
Invisible man was written by Ralph Ellison
If you don't understand what I'm saying, pick up a copy of James Baldwin's "Invisible Man," and read it. -
Subject: block party
Block parties always seem to bring out the neighborhood. Attempt to incite one with flyers.
Maybe that might be what the block needs.
Bake your favorite dish and say hello to the one who blocks your path.
Who knows, you might even run into RBG. She's sure to stand out with her hoodie and her BMW.
While you're all breaking bread, organize a meeting and form a block association. Then go to the local precinct as a group and demand that they patrol your neighborhood -
Subject: Re: I'm Real...I exist...
michaela wrote: [quote=Richblackgirl]Hello Neighbors:
Invisible man was written by Ralph Ellison
If you don't understand what I'm saying, pick up a copy of James Baldwin's "Invisible Man," and read it.
Haha. Guess at least one person on this board is more educated than RBG.
But in all seriousness, I highly recommend The Autobiography of Malcom X by Martin Luther King as told to James Earl Jones.
Check it out. -
Subject: Re: douchebag troll
Anonymous wrote: But in all seriousness, I highly recommend The Autobiography of Malcom X by Martin Luther King as told to James Earl Jones.
I hope you at least think you're being funny. For anyone who cares and doesn't know, The Autobiography of Malcolm X was published as told to Alex Haley. The troll is right about it being very good and worth reading though. -
Subject: Re: I'm Real...I exist...
Richblackgirl wrote: Hello Neighbors:
Uh Oh! African American Studies 101! I hope it's the heat. Michaela is right, Ralph Ellison wrote "Invisible Man."
James Baldwin's "Invisible Man" -
You should all be ashamed of yourselves, using this forum to correct each others intellect.
This is very similar to a childrens book where the spelling bee and the humbug duke it out.
Dave has bowed out of this message board, so why are you all arguing.
If you really want to be pro-active then support the issue, not advocating who's right and who's wrong.
This is the exact reason why there are racial boundaries and neighborhood boundaries. Just think before you start typing a response that is straight from emotion -
Subject: Re: douchebag troll
Carnivore wrote: [quote=Anonymous]But in all seriousness, I highly recommend The Autobiography of Malcom X by Martin Luther King as told to James Earl Jones.
I hope you at least think you're being funny. For anyone who cares and doesn't know, The Autobiography of Malcolm X was published as told to Alex Haley. The troll is right about it being very good and worth reading though.
Yeah, I do think that I was being funny. You see, what I did was, I mirrored RBG's inability to correctly name the author of a book she was arrogantly commanding us all to read (like Ellison's Invisible Man is obscure or anything, anyway...) to educate ourselves after RBG had previously crowed about how she has "more education than most of the whiners on this list[.]" See, now that's comedy! (To be truthful, it's even better when you come in and correct it. That's gold!)
Hanging someone by their own petard if you will...
Trollish? I can't believe you can get this easily offended and live in Brooklyn of all places. Lighten up. Just a tad. A wee. A bit. -
I got it. I think Carnivore must have misread your post.
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I can't afford a whole lot of rent ..so don't assume too much
I drink with neighbors that have been here for 10-20 years - you might call them thugs or brother...
No I don't always make eye contact -my guess is you don't always either - though a lot of the time I do sometimes I stop and chat and learn something...
Sometimes I'm just dog tired and it's NOT ABOUT YOU!
Anyway - RBG -- somedays I just don't have it in me to take each person to heart - but it's not because I don't want to...
This is not to be construed as a defense of 'white' people -- just a note about how I am feeling sometimes.
And yeah I know all about gentrification. I've been couch surfing for about a year trying to get the dough together to share a hole in a nieghborhood I love -- because of the people I've met here....
Check this out - you might like it www.stizzy.com -
After having a conversation with my, African-American, neighbor about this topic she mentioned that small talk is a great way to acknowledge each other. But also mentioned that everyone looks like they're in some rush to get to work. She thought that was funny. Or that they can't wait to get to the coffee houses or to the gym.
Before, she adds, a neighbor would shout hello and take a few minutes to walk over and chat about the weather or something simple. Now, she goes on to add, the conversation has to be intelligent and everyone is just concerned to resolve every political issue that the Times covered.
I guess a simple acknowledgement is something we take for granted.
I agree that we have our heads buried in newspapers and novels when riding the train, eating @ Tom's or walking to the grocery store.
Maybe a quick fix is to stop and smell the roses -
Once again above,
Anonymous Guest
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