SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights
Comments
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You can point to it Bill?
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Interesting. I was just watching Cate Blanchette portray Queen Elizabeth I. While being tortured in the Tower of London by her half-sister Mary's henchmen, Kate pleads "why can't we just believe in God, not a Protestant God or a Catholic God." This was of course heresy at the time, and many a good Protestant was burned at the stake for uttering such blasphemy.
Of course that was mid-16th century, and we are now far more civilized. Instead we have idealogues arguing that if you're a rational modern progressive you know that science trumps religion and that the two are incompatible.
Yet many advanced scientists seem to be leaning in just the opposite direction. I'm not talking about your high school biology teacher, but astronomers, astro-physicists and the like. The more you learn about the smallest particles and the largest expanses of the universe, the more you understand that you don't understand.
Rather than taking the position of Dawkins, that eventually science will figure it all out, why not accept that science and religion, rather than being incompatible, can actually co-exist, just as Catholics and Protestants do now? -
Yawn.
I don't think science will figure it all out. I don't think Dawkins believes we'll figure it all out either. -
Well here's the thing: Let us say, for the sake of argument, there is a god -- and by that we mean that a sentient being who created the world and all on it -- where in any of that is there a NEED for worship? My mother and father, in a sense, created me, and there is no worship there. There is, if anything a DIALOGUE with them to discern the inherent and learned things that make up me; i.e. RATIONAL exchange.
What you contend is that just because we are 'created', we are to be prostrate and say continually, 'Behold, the creator!'. That's not even a jump of FAITH Capn' Planet, that's a jump in REASONING. -
MHA, relax no one would ever want you to do something you didn't want to do, certainly not prostrate yourself before a creator.
I'm only suggesting that religion was developed by folks as a way of strengthing their tribe against other tribes, among other reasons.
I would propose that the Jews prevailed over their peers because of their superior moral code. The ten commandments, the Torah, etc., set them apart from the other tribes in the region and as it turns out, improved their survival chances. I mean the A'iites, the Lachishites and the Libnahites are hardly household names, yet few would say they've never heard of Jews.
All of the restrictions embodied in the Torah, the kosher laws, the many laws and covenants in Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, all kept the Jews walking the straight and narrow while other tribes partied and hung out.
So, sure, submitting to a Creator is a pain in the butt, but it works, if you're goal is long term survival.
Right about now, I'd say the majority of the human race seems to be a death march. If you want to be a part of the party hardy crowd, then keep on your prideful path. It seems you want have long to wait to see the consequences. -
Capt. Planet wrote:
religion was developed by folks as a way of strengthing their tribe against other tribes, among other reasons.
Among those other reasons are often these:
1) To explain the existence of earth, the sky and all other things, giving a beginning to it all (noble myth or otherwise)
2) To explain how we as humans fit in that context and to establish some sort of purpose to peoples' lives and connection to others. -
yes, folks get their PhDs in discussing the origin of the various religions.
I've always found the various theories/analysis regarding why specific religions were formed as related to their time in history and their place of origin to be interesting.
....Basically, those who study such things posit that the various religions evolved in order to meet the specific issues and questions that their stakeholders wrestled with.
Here's a paper that discusses the present evolution of religion in the US. I'm not sure I agree with it all, but it certainly seems topical:
http://www.ku.dk/satsning/religion/indhold/publikationer/working_papers/what_is_happened.pdf
Just a little light reading
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jeffrey wrote:
Capt. Planet wrote:
religion was developed by folks as a way of strengthing their tribe against other tribes, among other reasons.
Among those other reasons are often these:
1) To explain the existence of earth, the sky and all other things, giving a beginning to it all (noble myth or otherwise)
2) To explain how we as humans fit in that context and to establish some sort of purpose to peoples' lives and connection to others.
Jeff:
I totally agree. I was merely trying to respond to the practical issue of how we as a species survive into the next century. All of the reasons you sight are great and probably a lot more engaging to folks than the fear of imminent destruction that seemed the preferred motivator of the Old Testament God. When times are hard, as they often were for the early Israelites, and for modern humans, the fun stuff drops away and the instinctive drive for self-preservation kicks in. -
Yeah, since the topic kind of opened up there I was just fleshing out some of the "among other reasons" you alluded to...the basic ontological stuff that's existed since humans first pondered things in their caves and has occupied peoples' thoughts ever since.
Lots of other reasons in addition to all these for the origins and rise of religion and spirituality, naturally. -
I would propose that the Jews prevailed over their peers because of their superior moral code.
Not with how awful they were (and we as Christians even are!). They prevailed over their peers mostly because: GOD SAVES. I just read Jeremiah 29 with my wife yesterday. Man, the Jews should of been obliterated times and times again. I think we both agree with that, but I don't anyone thinking lawkeeping is a determining factor in presevering or prevailing. The Book of Job?
So, sure, submitting to a Creator is a pain in the butt, but it works, if you're goal is long term survival.
I'm going to post the following for a number of reasons:
It will address what prompts my worship of God. Jesus saved me from sin, death, and Hell. I love to say "Thank You" often. but even my "thank you" is fallen. I am SO not holier than thou. lol. Worship is every second not just Sunday in a building. It's hard cuz I'm prideful, but where sin abounds, His grace abounds all the more.
With that, it will address why I take Eph 2:8-10 serious: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
With that, it will address my little involvement in this thread. And how I long to carry on a face to face conversation of this magnitude with Capt Planet, MHA, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5muLJzlzc
Actions Speak Louder is a song that will be sold on iTunes on 11/16/10, with 100% of the proceeds being donated to His Voice Global to build a fourth orphanage in a war torn country that has left over 2 Million dead and many orphaned. Speak loud for orphans in Southern Sudan!
Peep It! Peace.
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The reason I bring up the fear factor in religion is two-fold. One, it is the part that MHA and no doubt others find most objectionable and two, it seems to be the part that is most needed now.
Let me explain. In the early days of the Israel, many people got sick from eating bad food from a variety of causes. Some of these sicknesses could be avoided by careful observation of cause and effect. This is how the Jewish kosher laws evolved. And again because of them Jews who were observant, had fewer sicknesses than others in the area.
Most Jews probably didn't know the reasons behind the kosher laws but both trusted their rabbis and feared Jehovah enough to obey them.
Nowadays, we have this thing called global warming. Also genetically modified foods, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, fire-retardants in just above all furniture, on and on. Just like eating pork and shellfish, the immediate impacts of these phenomena are not readily apparent.
But for those paying careful attention, like the rabbis were in the Jewish community, the implications are very clear.
Where is the mainstream church in warning us about the dangers of these new threats to our existence? Still lost in the Old Testement? Or fighting fights that were lost centuries ago? And if they did warn us, would there be anyone there to hear them?
Sadly I fear that our future as a species is bleak. Our religious leaders are asleep and their flocks are scattered and indifferent. And unlike the Israelites, who were defeated numerous times when they failed to obey the strictures of Jehovah, yet rose again and again, it looks like the defeat we are about to suffer could be one from which it will be impossible to recover.
We are not just one small tribe lost in a vast planet, but one huge tribe destroying a shrinking planet.
So, yuck it up, guys. God may end up having the last laugh, though more likely it will be a profoundly deep sigh. -
OSJ
So god exists merely because humans are screwing up the planet?
I was on You Tube checking out the latest UFO videos. Apparently our green to grey-skinned brethren have an elctromagnetic interest in the earth remaining viable, and they moreso than any god will likely save us. If you are pessimistic about man's likelihood to screw up the planet, I can be optimistic that E.T. (or ' the Ets' as I like to call them) will give his earth brothas (e-brothas? eebs?) a helping hand.
Hey man, whatever gets you through the day. -
Astonomers have been searching for years and have yet to find any trace of sentient life outside the planet. Right about now they're happy even to find a planet that might support bacteria.
If bacteria can build a space craft that travels at the speed of light, maybe there's hope someone will save us.
More likely we might want to think about ways to save the green-blue planet that God put us on.
Does God exist because we're screwing up the planet?
I guess that begs the question, where did we and the planet come from in the first place? If it all happened by spontaneous combustion, then I guess there's no need for a god and thus no one to care if we screw up the planet.
When was the last time you saw something spontaneously combust? -
So god exists because no one has seen a spontaneous combustion? And because YOU think a god exists, then that means god is moral? As you said earlier, Judaism's kosher laws did not require divine intervention to come into existence, but rather it was the result of rational thought. I believe you used the term 'cause and effect'. Similarly, the moral laws that you proclaim are Jesus or god-derived were around for a millenia before your boy Jesus or Moses stepped on the scene; again, those laws were derived from rational thought. Man's choice to pollute the planet isn't the result of a lack of a faith or belief in a god, it's a result of the technology he uses and his perception of the world in which he lives. The most pious of us and the most atheist of us pollute equally. I am quite confident that if the Rapture occurs Jesus will be traversing this chaotic land in an S.U.V.
God impregnated Mary -- and he didn't ask; that's rape. God smote (smighted?) countless numbers of lives off the planet just because they ignored him and liked kinky sex; that's genocide. So here is a diety who impregnated a woman without asking and killed more folks than we can count -- and you love this dude; right....
Frankly, if fear is the currency that I need to pay for my ticket to the Promised Land, then as mha best friend says,
"Two tears in a bucket -- fuckit": I don't wanna go.
Right.... -
Wow. Completely loved that post.
No sarcasm here, not rabble-rousing, just really appreciated MHA's thought process in this particular thread. -
ntfool wrote:
Wow. Completely loved that post.
No sarcasm here, not rabble-rousing, just really appreciated MHA's thought process in this particular thread.
Yeah, if it was accurate. *sigh* *shaking my head* seems like a lot of biblical error, bias, and strawmen being knocked down lately in here from most if not all of the participants. But again, it was stated prior, verbal convos are best. *goes back to applying for jobs*
FOR EXAMPLE:
Mary raped or ... ?
30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” [4]
35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born [5] will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant [6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
*sigh*
fam, im begging you please please please pleassseee delve deeper into these things. -
Oh, I get it. Thanks......
(WTF???!!!!!) -
There are no aliens, and "there's (probably) no god."
The difference is, we may one day find extra-terrestial lifeforms...
Those who realize that religion is a pervasive element to society and government need to speak up and take action to keep "church" separate from "state". I propose a new political party: The Honest-Tea Party!
Wow! There's even a "pray" emoticon. -
HisCrownHeights,
I do appreciate your faith. And I respect it. A belief in a higher power can be a beautiful thing, in that faith can strengthen one's daily existence. Unfortunately, throughout history, that level of faith is nearly always hijacked by an oligarchy, and becomes flawed and corrupted as a result. The various Crusades, the Inquisition, and even, for instance, the fact that the passages you quote are from a book written by men. Human, mortal men. Furthermore, from a version that was edited together hundreds of years after the death of Christ.
Do I believe that Mary was raped by a higher power? Not in the least, that's an entirely provocative sentiment, lobbed out here not to spark debate, but to end it. I do, however, find it highly more likely that the woman referred to as Mary became pregnant naturally.
I do not believe that an organization such as the Church is a requirment when aligning society's moral compass. Nor have I seen evidence suggesting that a strong love of God is necessary to ensure one's own sense of right and wrong. In fact, I imagine that there are just as many numerous examples throughout history of people - indivduals and groups - committing amoral, unspeakable acts in the name of God, as there are of the opposite.
God Against the Gods: A History of War Between Monotheism and Polytheism, a book by Jonathan Hirsch, is a fascinating read, by the way. It is not in any way an indictment of faith or belief, more a study of the cultural sea changes that occurred throughout human history whenever monotheism supplanted polytheism. -
Hey, I actually read that Hirsch book. It's excellent.
I have absolutely no appreciation for HCH's faith. But he/she has the right to believe in anything he/she wants to because we live in plural society. And the Constitution guarantees protection for all. If there is any thingdeserved to be held as sacred, it's the Constitution of these United States of America. It truly is a special document, created by man, amended by man -- unlike the Bible, created in 325 A.D. by man, and unfortunately not subject to amendment.
Morality is NOT dependent upon religion. Point blank. -
MHA wrote:
If there is any thingdeserved to be held as sacred, it's the Constitution of these United States of America. It truly is a special document, created by man, amended by man -- unlike the Bible, created in 325 A.D. by man, and unfortunately not subject to amendment.
Not true! It was amended (and extensively edited) in the early 1600's, as the first King James edition. All to suit the needs of the monarchy and the Church of England at the time. -
True. Agreed. -
don't most religions just take their favorite parts from the bible?
....the thing can be interpeted to say just about anything.
But I agree, one not need to be religious to be moral. -
If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times "It's not necessary to be religious to be moral"
A convenient cop-out in my opinion. Without constant reinforcement, morality has no hope of having any sustained influence on one's life. It's why alcoholics go to AA. The temptations of the flesh trump anything you got on your own unless you're a monk.
As for the fear factor, most people just don't have the will power to do the right thing just because it makes sense. How many folks understand the implications of global climate change (death to millions from rising water tables, famine, disease, civil war) but leave their AC on all day during the summer just so they have a cool apartment to come home to? Now if they were afraid that God might damn them for this indiscretion, would they still persist? -
So, am I monk?
Delusional about my sense of morality?
...a statistical outlier?
Or merely destined to lose my morality over time?
I'd join a religion if I thought it would make me a better person.
Until then, I'm glad you found something that keeps you on course.
BTW, the therapeutic community movement has tens of thousands of people in recovery. No weekly meetings required. ...Many of the folks in the TC world tried AA but it didn't work for them. ...yet they have found a way out of addiction.
Can't someone be moral and happy without religion for the long term?
Bill W are you available to confirm my suspicion that you wanted to create an opportunity for a support system, but were open to one that doesnt look like the modern AA?
Just because someone isn't part of a religion or AA doesn't mean they are alone or without support.
I've also heard that people who have religion and those that don't can get along with out judging each other.
Can't I get a "whatever works for you" attitude in return for me giving it to you? -
Capt. Planet wrote:
If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times "It's not necessary to be religious to be moral"
A convenient cop-out in my opinion. Without constant reinforcement, morality has no hope of having any sustained influence on one's life. It's why alcoholics go to AA. The temptations of the flesh trump anything you got on your own unless you're a monk.
As for the fear factor, most people just don't have the will power to do the right thing just because it makes sense. How many folks understand the implications of global climate change (death to millions from rising water tables, famine, disease, civil war) but leave their AC on all day during the summer just so they have a cool apartment to come home to? Now if they were afraid that God might damn them for this indiscretion, would they still persist?
I find it incredibly near-sighted of you to assume that every person of moral fiber, well, everywhere apparently, simply must be a person of faith.
I've known numerous individuals who live good and just lives and don't happen to subcribe to your, or any, religion. I'd include myself in that category. I wouldn't leave the AC on all day when no one's home, cheat on my wife or murder someone just to steal their wallet not because of fear of some omniscient and all-powerful being looking over me, but because I'm not an @sshole.
Besides, if one only does good out of fear of retribution, then they are clearly NOT moral people. They're just going through the motions in an effort to avoid punishment. How is that morality? -
I really don't want to go into my anti-imperialist bag or jump on my creaky soapbox and start prosleytizin', but Captain Planet makes it difficult. I'll merely put one foot on the box, and one hand in the bag and say that the indigenous people of this land and the hemisphere now known as the Americas did fine before the onward Christian soldiers came marching on to war with them. There ability to live with the land was so successful that it's now rare that contemporary man finds artifacts of their existence, as all their tools, and bones have returned to the land, as Mother Nature intends...
And one need not limit oneself to the Americas. Let's go across the big pond and look at pre-Christian Europe, and early China. Prior to the Christian shtick people lived happily (and unhappily) with the land. the Celts and the Druids and other pejoratively named 'pagans' were happy doing what they did creating moral paradigms way before Augustine and Constantine came through.
It's my argument that the potential end of the world is a function of man's inability to see a relationshp between cause and effect. That's not a function of indifference towards god, but rather a function of embracing technology whose effects we fail to maintain, or police or care about. It has absolutely nothing to do with a belief in a higher power. Show me one stanza in the Bible where Jesus says, 'Go green'!
Christians have been heralding the end of days since they started their religion. In many ways, I fear they actually want to see 'the Rapture' so they can turn triumphantly to the non-believers and pagans amongst us and say, 'See! I told you so!' It's a weird obverted form of Schadenfreude.
Christianity, and other cults like it are dependent upon the notion of an all powerful being to whom we seek guidance, and is based on cosmic fear. I don't need fear to be a good person. Fear works, but we need not depend up it to strive to be moral; to be good. It's not a cop out. There was goodness before Christianity. And there will be goodness after Christianity. -
I remember getting in trouble in my 5th Grade religion class because I asked if someone followed every teaching in the Bible, lead a good and moral life, and their only shortcoming was not going to church if they would go to hell. Sister H replied "Absolutely". My reply "That's stupid". I earned a bunch of Our Fathers, Hail Mary's and a trip to the principals office, plus a writing assignment about why it was important to speak respectfully when I disagreed with someone.
The concept of religion=morality is still not part of my personal religious beliefs. I choose to believe that based upon what I am able to comprehend of God's design, he might indeed have created people who are skeptics, who ask questions and challenge and who push others to articulate their faith more clearly. I believe that it is possible that some of those people may lead completely moral lives as that is defined in the Bible.
And I don't believe that it is my place to either have to understand why he would do that, or to judge those people for their beliefs. I choose to believe that only God has the power to judge men for their sins against him and that while I can be as judgemental as I want when it comes to sins against man, I've got to leave the rest of it up to him. -
Homeowner, so you think God has a penis? -
My God is definitely a him. A woman would have created a far more orderly universe.
Howdy, Stranger!
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