SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

I am not of the perspective that law = morality.

Or that society's morality is at an all time low.

Or that society's respect for law is at all time low.

Or that moral codes must be codified in religion, or even codified at all.

...so I assumed you weren't talking to me.

....but someday, I'll have nothing to say, I promise.

Until then, here's a response to your message:

I. To the fascination of my college friends, I have found a way to do without the noise, dirt, beer, speed, victories, danger, and women in tight jeans of NASCAR.

To the seeming fascination of others, I have found a way to live without the promise of eternal life and a moral code based on religion.

[I am really not unique, so I am not sure why I garner such fascination]

II. This world is large enough for those who don't have religion, as well as those who do.

I just never managed to get up the energy to sort people on the basis of whether they have religion or not. I tend to think we are all equal, and just sit back at watch the show.

Others will make fun of your faith, but not me. I have too many friends who are deeply religious to simply dismiss them.

III. I will state that it must truly suck to think the world is coming to an end, and that you have a message that you feel a deep desire to share to others ...yet some will not listen

I will state that I am glad you have found something that you think will improve the world.

...and I will state that if I ever find such a thing, I promise I will join.

...but at the present time I continue to feel no obligation to join any religion as a result of the arguments I have heard.

This sneech doesn't care whether you have a star on your chest or not, and respectfully requests the same in return.

hi, PittieCity

"pride goeth before the fall."? Please don't take the aggregated total of what I have to say as an expression of 'pride'. Pride has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Regarding CP's sense that law derives from a moral code, I disagree. Secular moral code - as codified in law (both de jure and de facto) are buttressed by cops willing to wrap a telephone book around your head and smack it with a baseball bat;the notion of being forced to become someone's beeyotch behind bars too. FEAR and PAIN buttress moral codes. Isn't it the fear of hellfire what gets Christians into formation? Well, Leviathan's preference for order makes us all cringe.

Regardless of how 'good' or 'nice' CP and HCH are as people, it's the belief that Jesus and his father Jehovah are somehow so necessary for ALL which has my briefs in a bunch. I can't get over that. 'Arrogance of faith' sums it up nicely; also a name of a book too...

(Moderator, I've lost my ability to embolden, underline and italicize.)

eh. nvm. i dont know how ppl may be feeling... could be a bad week. -------- *sigh*

Wow, billboards. Personally, I might have gone with a subway ad as they are guaranteed to be seen by all the awkward subway riders pretending not to be looking at anyone else.

As to the article, all I can say is that I am glad there are finally "aggressive atheists." Is it really any wonder than in their attempts to debunk religion in America, they starts with Christians? 'Tis the season...

Some of the comments are worth reading, I've only read the first page, but so far I side with the NYT commenters #3 and #11.

(hopefully they won't renumber them...)

#6 is good. ....and (as a fourth grader) I certainly got the sense Jesus was an Irish guy who somehow ended up in the middle east as a result of being taught by Sister Dorthy Marie, IHM (a nun in the Immaculate Heart of Mary order)

It seem their membership remains very similar: http://www.ihmimmaculata.org/who/administration.html

....but I continue to prefer comments such as 103, 108 and 127.

...and might buy stock in roadside billboards. ....just when we thought the future of advertising was going to be digital!

it doesn't offend the community. you don't speak for the community. and the fact that you think this would be a good way to harness all that wasted energy is off base.

"Okay Believers,

You want to do something for your community? Assuming that you guys have some rapport with the neighborhood preachers, why don't you write a letter and get all of the lean-to churches on Franklin Avenue, the whoop and wailers on Bedford Avenue, the empty Catholic Church on Classon -- and I believe there is a Masjid or two on Bedford Avenue, as well as a synagogue on St. Johns -- get them all: Rabbis, Ministers, and Imams to sign this petition kindly asking the Crown Hill jewelery shop proprietor to change the mural. Have this petition state it offends the community to have to confront that tasteless image every day. How about it HCH? How about it Cap'n Planet?"

As long as you "breach the boundary" and join me. *SMILE*

Did I deny global Warming was real? Please cite

I have an SUV?

There aren't religious people who have SUVs and deny global warming?

....Iogic

hmmm. As readers are aware, my view of religion isn't negative like MHA's.

[The Capt appears to believe that as a member of a religion, he and his fellow members live their lives in more moral ways than they otherwise would. He seems to believe that if more people would join a religion, we would have a better world. MHA strongly disagrees, and feels religion does far more harm than good.]

MHA, you clearly feel that the local religious groups do very little. Instead of continuing to argue that point, can we change the subject to my mind's present wonderings?

Here's what is going on in my head at the moment:

On an anti-religion bent:

Although I believe we'll all simply become dirt, could one just be "average in real life" and still get a ticket to the "good afterlife", because they were a believer? I mean, if I believed I was going to have a good afterlife simply as a result of my faith, I would be tempted to use this as an excuse to be a moral slacker in the real world. In theory I would at least get a few points for believing in god; Can't I spend at least a few of those points doing things I know aren't right?

In religions that don't believe in an afterlife, the central argument for religion seems to be:

Like all groups of people, membership requires an adherence to a set of norms and expectations. If your group is successful, it has ways of enforcing these norms by shunning people who violate them, and a community of shared norms results. The 10 Commandments, the 12 Steps, and the Weight Watcher Point System come quickly to mind.

....those who are opposed to religions, often state that secular law does an adequate job for them ...and that shunning certainly takes place outside the confines of religions. [of course, not everyone believes this is enough].

Which all leads me to wonder:

Do we expect different obligations from "groups of people" (aka religions) than "mere individuals"? Or, closely related: Must a religious person be better than a nonreligious one in real life?

My quick answer is that "simply by the virtue of being part of this adventure called "life" we have an obligation to be decent to each other."

....it doesn't matter to me whether you do it out of religion, fear of prison, or whatever.

Capt. does it matter to you WHY someone acts in a moral manner?

MHA does it matter to you WHY someone acts in a moral manner?

HCH does it matter to you WHY someone acts in a moral manner?

Does one need intent to be good?

Perhaps your bigman had a speech he thought would elicit support from the most people:

a. those who gave to people who found Jesus

b. those who gave to former addicts

c. those who feared a beat down.

One could be a member of a, b, or c.

One could be a member of all of the above, or some combination.

....the best appeals to donors aren't that transparent, but I'll give bigman a break and mention that he probably didn't have time to do a lot of donor research. He also may not have taken advanced marketing classes.

To help him out on future appeals, perhaps we could be assigned subway cars to sit, based on whether we were to donated on a, b, c or some combination. This way, he could make the right speech to the right car.

We should also have a car for people who are not going to donate at all. ...that is where I wish to sit.

I will let my friends, coworkers and family know that Capt thinks our interactions are less consequential and moral than his.

...but I am not sure they (or I) have a basis to value his opinion.

MHA, apparently wasting time here makes Capt believe we do nothing else. It somehow makes us more shallow than the Captian, and means we have lives devoid of meanigful person connections.

Capt, I am sincerely glad your statements continue to have no basis.