Fear of Pitbull

I have a pit mix and he is the sweetest dog ever. He doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. I have to remove my kittens from the room while he is eating, otherwise they will steal his breakfast while he stands there helplessly.

I really believe it is all in the way dogs are raised and trained. I don't believe these stories about pit bulls that suddenly "turn" and attack a family member -- who is going to confess to the police that their pit that they use for dog fights got loose and killed grandma? So of course they say the dog was always as gentle as a lamb.

I think a lot of it is the owner but I also think that irresponsible breeding has led to some dogs that are genetically overdisposed to aggression and instability. This isn't to say that all pit or pit mixes are bad, quite the contrary, but caution seems reasonable with the breed.

pleasedontbite wrote: What about the young boy who was killed by the family Pit in San Francisco a while ago? These were supposedly gentle family dogs that even slept in the boy's bed with him at night. Yet suddenly one (or both) of them snapped and killed the kid while his mom was out running errands.

Obviously you have never met WiFi's dog Lucy (a beutiful pit bull that they adopted) who is sooo lovable. I didn't hear about the story you are talking about I believe dogs have their own personalities just like people and I guess on some occasions dogs (like people) snap. There are moms who drown their own kids.

I think the pit bull stories are publicized more than other dogs. I have been bitten by two dogs in my life and both were chiuauas (sorry SJE ).

stopdonbite wrote:

By the way, is there such a thing as a good guard dog that is ONLY aggressive toward intruders and very unlikely to turn on famly m,embers etc ??

I think that describes almost all dogs.

stopdonbite wrote: The little dogs can be nippy. However, it would be pretty hard for a chihuaha to kill an adult. That's the difference, really. If a Pit or a Rottie or a German Shepherd or a Canario etc, snaps, you can wind up dead. When a Yorkie or Chi or Min Pin snaps, well..... for one thing its too darn small to get at your throat or your face and head. Plus its way easier to overpower the thing. I mean, I've heard of scenarios where a Pit in the head, and still continued attacking. I can't imagine a smaller dog being able to withstand that.

By the way, is there such a thing as a good guard dog that is ONLY aggressive toward intruders and very unlikely to turn on famly m,embers etc ??

if you are apprehensive about getting a larger dog
then i strongly urge you to not get one
the dog will read your fear of it and will test your dominance constantly

if you do wish to adopt a dog. get a smaller one.
one that you feel comfortable handling and setting strict boundaries for

....(sigh)....

those of us who have taken pits into our homes have the added burden of trying desperately to educate the public. it's going to be hard for me to respond to this without getting emotional, but i'll do my best.

first off, the term "pit bull" doesn't really refer to one particular breed, but to a handful of breeds with similar temperments and characteristics. so when we refer to pitbulls, we are usually talking about: English Staffordshires, English Bull Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, or American Pit Bull Terriers. but also there are times when people see another breed and refer to it as a "pit" when in actuality it's a completely different breed such as a Cane Corso, Dogo, Presa Canario, or Boxer.

now before we continue, let's so a little fun test. can y'all identify the dreaded American Pit Bull Terrier out of the lineup:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

no? me, neither, at first!

according to the CDC, the number of reported dog fatalities in the US between 1980 (or was it 1979) and 1996 was a little less than 300 (sorry, i didn't look up the data. i'm quoting from memory, but i will confirm my numbers if anyone wants me to). of that number, only 20% were identifed as bona-fide pit bull caused fatalities.

the American Temperament Test Society (ATTS) releases data on a fairly regular basis on breed temperment statistics, the most recent being in 2005. many people are surprised when i tell them that in the report, the average pass rate for all breeds combined was 81% (to put this in perspective, they tested 26K + dogs). Am Staffs passed at 83%, and Am PBTs passed at 83.5%. not too shabby,eh?

since other breeds were mentioned in this thread, i went back to check the data:
Chihuahuas passed far below the average at 71%
Rottweilers: 82.5%
GSDs: 83.1%
Min Pins: 80.8%
Yorkies: 81.1%
Canarios (they only tested 2, both of which passed for a 100% pass rate. but i don't think you can get a good sampling based on only 2 animals so we are going to use Cane Corsos, instead...)
Cane Corsos: 76.6%

also, to be fair to our mixed-breed friends, mutts passed at 85.4%

so if we base our bias towards pits on their temperment, then it's fair to say that as breeds go, the pit temperment is stable and above the national average. and i'll tell you folks something: as a veterinary professional, i have given my entire career over to the welfare of animals so i do have a certain amount of experience with many different breeds. when i was working clinical rotations at the hospital, if i had a choice i would choose working with the pit over the chihuahua every time. nine times out of ten the pit would not show an ounce of aggression. 7 times out of ten the chihuahua tried to bite me, 3 times at my face. bad doggy! would any of those Chihuahua attacks resulted in my death? no, but who of you out there would be willing to pay my reconstructive surgery bills, huh?

pleasedontbite asks, "You really think there would be absolutely NO possibility of it attacking me or another innocent human, so long as I trained it right and treated it right? Really?" no, of course not. but that's a tremendously unfair question. Let me ask another question: if i purchased a dull knife to cut tomatoes and only held it by the handle, you really think there would be absolutely NO possibility of it cutting me or another person as long as i held it properly and kept it in a drawer? really? of COURSE i could be cut by the knife. sure, the right hand holding the knife handle wouldn't be, but what about the left hand holding the tomato? what about when i wash the dull knife in the sink? place it in the drawer? and i purposely used the dull knife as an example since we are talking about dangerous animals. i could easily use a more benign object for my argument such as a pillow or a piece of twine, but i am trying to compare apples with apples.

the question here should not be: can you prove to me that pits are safe? cuz there ain't no fair way to do that. first you define a "pit" for me (by the way, have you taken the test yet?), and then i'll tell you whether or not it's safe.

stopdontbite makes reference to pitbull banning in England. yes, absolutely... the Dangerous Dogs Act was enacted in 1991. it covered 4 dog types, including the various pits. it states that you can't breed them, sell them, exchange them, or abandon them, but it doesn't say you can't own them. it also states that the time may come when the Secretary of State or Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II decides that it is illegal to own them. the Dangerous Dogs Act was amended in 1997. now the law specifically states that nothing shall require the court to order the destruction of a dog if the court is satisfied that the dog would not constitute a danger to public safety. so have pits been banned in England? not really. it's just that now owners must be extremely responsible in their ownership or their dogs may be seized and euthanized.

pleasedontbite also makes reference to a case in San Fran where a young boy was killed by the family dog. it's absolutely true: Nicholas Faibish, aged 12, was attacked and killed by their male pit Rex II. but i really wouldn't go so far as to suggest that this was a "family" pet in the Lassie sense of the term. the Faibishes had two pits for breeding purposes. the female, Ella, was in heat at the time of the mauling, and Rex II was aggresive towards anyone whom he perceived to be a challenger. so what does Maureen Faibish do? Lock up the dog? Nooooo, lock up the kid. seriously. she locked her son Nicholas in the basement to "keep him safe". the boy somehow got out, and was freakin' killed as a result! Family Pet? I. Don't. Think. So. this was not a case of the family pet snapping for no reason at all and going postal on the child. this was a bad dog, a bad mother, and a sad victim. i don't think it's fair to use this case as an example.

listen, i don't want to stand here and go on and on about the fact that in all my years of responsible dog ownership that little avatar you see under my moniker is by far the best damned dog i've ever owned. and i'm not going to mention that she is also by far the most challenging dog i've ever owned, mostly because she's smarter than most dogs i've come across which means she is more mischevious than most. but i WILL stand here and say for the first 5 years she was with me, she ate most of my shoes. and i WILL stand here and say that when she first came into my life i wasn't pleased. i was nervous about having a pit in my house with other animals around. but i am so goshdang GLAD i opened my doors to her. she has brought me much joy, and she will continue to do so until she goes.

I'd like to say that there's a lot of ignorance out there about pitbull-types, but I think that extends to all dogs, unfortunately. NO dog 'snaps.' Dogs make way more sense than humans, and there's always signs of growing frustration, but the owners either ignore the signs or they're blissfully ignorant of them. When these frustrations manifest, it's more serious with larger and/or stronger dogs - ANY dog owner has a responsibility to ensure that their dog is well-balanced, but it's an even greater responsibility for owners of large/powerful dogs.

sweet tea wrote: [quote=stacey]There are moms who drown their own kids.

careful, there'll be a petition to outlaw mothers soon....

kosherdave wrote:

Any dog can snap, regardless of its perfect (or less than perfect) training. When I was wee, I used to sleep with my family's german shepard. It was an older dog and one night when I was sleeping, I rolled over onto it and it and it woke up, bit my face, and off to the ER I went. I was about 5 maybe? I can't recall. By my own admission, the dog (Connan) was older, but my point is a seemingly innocent dog, so innocent my parents let me sleep with it, bit me in the middle of the night. .

I agree with you, Dave. I think any dog can snap. I think that owners of dogs like Pits and Rottie's who claim that their dogs are totally safe, are playing themselves. Sure, their dogs are no doubt nice dogs and the owners love them and look after them properly. I still think they can snap though. Hell, my normally delightful and gentle Min Pin snapped one day when a kid tried to take away her stick. But being a Min Pin all she did was growl, bare her teeth and give the kid a "get out of my fucking face" look. Whereas a Pit could have pushed the kid's wig back.

Precious Williams wrote: Since then I'm scared of dogs that are any bigger than a Min Pin. Even Labs are scary to me.

I was proud of myself at the weekend though. I patted a Pit Bull on the head and let it come really close to me. I also let a German Shepherd sniff my leg.

congrats! seriously. y'know, we don't spend enough time acknowledging our achievements. it is so hard to be afraid of something, whether rational or irrational, and then face that fear.

i'm seriously afraid of spiders. they are marvelous creatures, do a tremendous amount in keeping down the insect population, and are spinning marvels. but they have scared me to the point where i'ld run screaming from the room. a couple of years ago, i decided to face my fears. now, whenever i see a spider in the house, i go get something like a cup or a paper, coax it into/onto the object, and take it to the backyard. granted, i am whimpering and squeeking the whole time, but i do it. now, does that serve any purpose? are the spiders going to give me a Good Human award? nah, and if one touched me i'd probably faint. but, in my way, i am doing what i can to overcome the fear of spiders, so once in awhile i give props to myself for not being such a ninny about them anymore.

you deserve to be proud of yourself, precious. fear is no joke, and touching the one big dog and allowing the other big dog to sniff you is truly a bit of personal progress. kudos!

shishkab wrote: [quote=Precious Williams] Since then I'm scared of dogs that are any bigger than a Min Pin. Even Labs are scary to me.

I was proud of myself at the weekend though. I patted a Pit Bull on the head and let it come really close to me. I also let a German Shepherd sniff my leg.

congrats! seriously. y'know, we don't spend enough time acknowledging our achievements. it is so hard to be afraid of something, whether rational or irrational, and then face that fear.

i'm seriously afraid of spiders. they are marvelous creatures, do a tremendous amount in keeping down the insect population, and are spinning marvels. but they have scared me to the point where i'ld run screaming from the room. a couple of years ago, i decided to face my fears. now, whenever i see a spider in the house, i go get something like a cup or a paper, coax it into/onto the object, and take it to the backyard. granted, i am whimpering and squeeking the whole time, but i do it. now, does that serve any purpose? are the spiders going to give me a Good Human award? nah, and if one touched me i'd probably faint. but, in my way, i am doing what i can to overcome the fear of spiders, so once in awhile i give props to myself for not being such a ninny about them anymore.

you deserve to be proud of yourself, precious. fear is no joke, and touching the one big dog and allowing the other big dog to sniff you is truly a bit of personal progress. kudos!Thanks. And I'm with you about the spiders. I am scared of them for sure, but it has gotten a little bit better. Once I actually went into shock and couldn't stop trembling and vomited after seeing a huge spider in my flat. And I wasn't a kid - I was in my twenties at the time. Now that I come to think of it, I might get some hypnotherapy for it actually. I don't think I'd go into shock now if I saw one, but I'd be very very upset

I can now actually touch a Pit Bull. I also sat in a dog run with a Pit in it for at least half an hour. (I was however calculating how long it would take me to scale the fence out of the dog run, should the Pit get annoyed with me sneezing or laughing or something and ATTACK, lol) But I could actually not touch a spider. Or a rottweiler.

I don't mean to pick on you, but these are prime examples of not knowing much about dogs -

Precious Williams wrote: When my Min Pin starts being annoying to other people or other animals it is very easy for me to just scoop her up...

Picking up the dog like this only encourages this behavior (aggression, possibly possessiveness over you) in the future.

Precious Williams wrote: I think because of the damage that Pits can do, they should NEVER be offleash apart from in their own homes or on the owners' own ENCLOSED land.

Many dogs can do a great deal of damage, what about them? Irish Wolf Hounds? German Shepherds? Dobermans? Labs? Corsos? Huskies? Irish Setters? Golden Retrievers? The list is hundreds long.

Precious Williams wrote: Min Pin snapped one day when a kid tried to take away her stick.

That's because your dog has dominance issues and is possessive. You need to work on that.

Precious Williams wrote: I think that owners of dogs like Pits and Rottie's who claim that their dogs are totally safe, are playing themselves.

Again, learn more about your dog, them tell me about mine.

WhyFi wrote: I don't mean to pick on you, but these are prime examples of not knowing much about dogs -

[quote=Precious Williams]When my Min Pin starts being annoying to other people or other animals it is very easy for me to just scoop her up...

Picking up the dog like this only encourages this behavior (aggression, possibly possessiveness over you) in the future.

Precious Williams wrote: I think because of the damage that Pits can do, they should NEVER be offleash apart from in their own homes or on the owners' own ENCLOSED land.

Many dogs can do a great deal of damage, what about them? Irish Wolf Hounds? German Shepherds? Dobermans? Labs? Corsos? Huskies? Irish Setters? Golden Retrievers? The list is hundreds long.

Precious Williams wrote: Min Pin snapped one day when a kid tried to take away her stick.

That's because your dog has dominance issues and is possessive. You need to work on that.

Precious Williams wrote: I think that owners of dogs like Pits and Rottie's who claim that their dogs are totally safe, are playing themselves.

Again, learn more about your dog, them tell me about mine.

My puppy is not perfect and she is also still only a puppy. My post was to illustrate the fact that while the smaller dogs are in no way perfect and do act out - they cannot do all that much damage. The example I gave you was the WORST thing my puppy has ever done. All in all, I don't think her "worst" behavior is much of a danger to society at large. Do you? You're not going to read about her in the newspaper having torn out a kid's throat or torn away half of somebody's face.

I actually really love rotties and pits. of course, I've only ever met rescued versions of these dogs, so they're always damaged. my mom's rottie, meadow, shreds cats for fun and has major problems with men. my ex's pit bull is terrified of the outdoors and would growl and snap if you tried to take him outside. inside the house, though, he snuggled with the cats and laid his velvety face in my lap.

the point being, dogs are like humans - their past experiences shape their present. but, unlike humans, they're pretty stable in their personalities. if something sets them off, it always sets them off.

shishkab wrote: [quote=meanderthal] That wouldn't be surprising if pit bulls constituted 20% of the dog population, but wouldn't they be closer to 1%? If so, the 20% argues to their disadvantage.

:-k it's a interesting point.

to be perfectly honest with you, i don't really know what the american dog populations broken down by breed are. do you have an data on it?

No, I was just guessing.

precious_williams's citation does say 1% but in the following text the writer expressed doubt, thinking the figure is too low (but not by how much).