Election 2008: So is Hillary Clinton finished?
Comments
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mr. met wrote: hilary will win
Possible...I had a dream last night where I was in Prospect Park and I happened upon a tombstone. Intruiged, I went in closer so as to be able to read it. Before I was able to do so, a hand burst from the earth and a FRICKIN' HILLARY CLINTON ZOMBIE started to claw its way up from the grave. It's gotta mean something.
I know that sounds like a weird dream, but I was going back and forth between the news and Return of the Living Dead last night. -
That cartoon is brilliant.
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huh. I actually got into a huge fight with a guy (who I think was also hitting on me but I'm lousy at that whole interaction thing) about Hillary. I am, and please, flame away if you mus, agreeing more and more with Gloria Steinem. I think that women, of any race, are just more subject to vilification than men of any race. and black men ... well. we know why Colin Powell dropped out of that race - and he's a better candidate than Barack can ever be. so this whole election terrifies me. I don't want to end up with McCain, and I'm really sick of the fact that women (of any race) and black men are so subject to subjugation.
and yeah. feel free to disagree. this is how I feel, though. -
me too on that subjugation point - but I agree with these interesting comments from tough Texas women...excerpted from A NY Times article from yesterday...and remember, Texas has been way ahead of the rest of the country with strong women in leadership positions, be they Dems, Reps, columnists or business leaders...so Hillary is not such a unique phenomena in Texas.
“We’re beyond feminism,” said Kathy DeLange, 64, a retired school psychologist, who wore her heart on her head — an Obama cap — as she arrived at the polls here on Tuesday for the first day of early primary voting. “We’re into personism now.”
"... Frances T. Farenthold, 81, a prominent national Democrat who is known as Sissy and served from 1969 to 1973 as the only woman in the Texas House of Representatives, said she could not forgive Mrs. Clinton’s vote for the Iraq war and was supporting Mr. Obama. “I’m not going to set aside everything because a woman is running,” Ms. Farenthold said, adding that the state’s tradition of strong women went only so far. “There’s a tradition of having pets, too,” she said. -
Livetotravel wrote:
i do not agree with this oft-stated idea. the whole "post feminist" thing seems to me mostly about vilifying feminism, not just critiquing it.
“We’re beyond feminism,”
i was so over hillary until i started paying attention to the way she is discussed. (and i'm not talking about her voting record.) riled me right back up, it did.
i'm not an unreserved fan of gloria steinem, but i also thought her editorial was right on target. -
I was a big Clinton fan. I voted for her for Senator. But she has turned me off big time with her negative campaign and her sense that she is somehow entitled to the nomination. Her supposedly superior experience compared to Obama consists primarily of having been married to the President. This is feminism?
The way she's turning people off (and I'm talking about Democrats now, not the usual suspects on the far right) has little to do with her being a woman and everything to do with the way she's conducted herself in the primaries. -
sweet tea wrote: [quote=Livetotravel]
i do not agree with this oft-stated idea. the whole "post feminist" thing seems to me mostly about vilifying feminism, not just critiquing it.
“We’re beyond feminism,”
i was so over hillary until i started paying attention to the way she is discussed. (and i'm not talking about her voting record.) riled me right back up, it did.
i'm not an unreserved fan of gloria steinem, but i also thought her editorial was right on target.
it's also a bullshit Texas thought. I lived in Texas for years, practiced law there (though have not kept up with the law there, thank god for being able to put your license in stasis, which has been pointed out to me repeatedly) and for serious, feminism is much needed in Texas. strong Texan women are white, empowered, wealthy, and, frankly, playing a game with the men making decisions. I represented a lot of poor women - sometimes in the context of classes or clinics, other times out of legal aid offices or, finally, the practice in which I was an associate. in all cases, the best chances I had of winning a case while representing a woman involved outsmarting the other side not on the facts, because the facts were ALWAYS irrelevant, but on the law. if I could figure out where they'd forgotten something or messed up a deadline or otherwised practiced law like normal, harried lawyers, I won. if I didn't? I lost. the facts weren't enough.
and. (and this is a big one for anyone who pays child support.) I got a lot of love out of the special statutes enacted for the attorney general's office to collect child support. I used them, because they were fabulously quasi-criminal laws that demanded adherence, and got my way. but again. ONLY because I was following statutory/constitutional law. without that, I lost when representing a woman. and it wasn't just me. it was everyone in the practice. even the big name firms with texas offices steered clear of representing women in family, immigration and criminal cases. it was a sure-fire way to lose. -
Carnivore wrote: I was a big Clinton fan. I voted for her for Senator. But she has turned me off big time with her negative campaign and her sense that she is somehow entitled to the nomination. Her supposedly superior experience compared to Obama consists primarily of having been married to the President. This is feminism?
I'm not going to say her campaign has been awesome. but I blame the campaign, not her. frankly, head to head, she and Barack are very different in terms of ideals and I have major issues with a few of Barack's stated goals (from the candidates' websites).
The way she's turning people off (and I'm talking about Democrats now, not the usual suspects on the far right) has little to do with her being a woman and everything to do with the way she's conducted herself in the primaries.
but also, in terms of electability and vilification, on a broader level, I'm just disgusted. actually. I want to cry. (and was crying on saturday while discussing this issue with my family.)
I'm not saying I want Barack to lose, or Hillary *should* win. I'm saying either way, the whole thing makes me sick and I totally am agreeing more and more, on a daily basis, with Gloria's editorial. -
Gloria Steinem wrote: I’m supporting Senator Clinton because like Senator Obama she has community organizing experience, but she also has more years in the Senate, an unprecedented eight years of on-the-job training in the White House, no masculinity to prove, the potential to tap a huge reservoir of this country’s talent by her example, and now even the courage to break the no-tears rule.
The "community organizing experience" is the same thing she was dismissing as irrelevant for Obama in the first 2 paragraphs of her editorial. So she has a couple of years edge on him in the Senate. But lets get real. The only significant difference that Steinem is citing here is Clinton's 8 years as wife-to-the-President. I don't understand how this is a feminist position at all. I think the real reason for her support is the phrase "no masculinity to prove." The fact is that Clinton's sex trumps all other considerations for Steinem. Which is fine. But recognize that that doesn't make anyone who finds fault with her a misogynist.Gloria Steinem wrote: But what worries me is that he is seen as unifying by his race while she is seen as divisive by her sex.
She isn't seen as "divisive by her sex" by those who are voting in the primaries. Perhaps this could be said of the far right, but I think most Democrats who find Clinton divisive feel that way because of her words and actions, not her sex. Similarly, it isn't Obama's race that makes him unifying. It's his words and his positive campaign. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=Gloria Steinem]I’m supporting Senator Clinton because like Senator Obama she has community organizing experience, but she also has more years in the Senate, an unprecedented eight years of on-the-job training in the White House, no masculinity to prove, the potential to tap a huge reservoir of this country’s talent by her example, and now even the courage to break the no-tears rule.
The "community organizing experience" is the same thing she was dismissing as irrelevant for Obama in the first 2 paragraphs of her editorial. So she has a couple of years edge on him in the Senate. But lets get real. The only significant difference that Steinem is citing here is Clinton's 8 years as wife-to-the-President. I don't understand how this is a feminist position at all. I think the real reason for her support is the phrase "no masculinity to prove." The fact is that Clinton's sex trumps all other considerations for Steinem. Which is fine. But recognize that that doesn't make anyone who finds fault with her a misogynist.Gloria Steinem wrote: But what worries me is that he is seen as unifying by his race while she is seen as divisive by her sex.
She isn't seen as "divisive by her sex" by those who are voting in the primaries. Perhaps this could be said of the far right, but I think most Democrats who find Clinton divisive feel that way because of her words and actions, not her sex. Similarly, it isn't Obama's race that makes him unifying. It's his words and his positive campaign.
seriously, I think you're not the kind of person she's talking about. but that person is prevalent. -
alafairnadia wrote: strong Texan women are white, empowered, wealthy, and, frankly, playing a game with the men making decisions.
Uh, Barbara Jordon, Sheila Jackson Lee ?? -
Livetotravel wrote: [quote=alafairnadia] strong Texan women are white, empowered, wealthy, and, frankly, playing a game with the men making decisions.
Uh, Barbara Jordon, Sheila Jackson Lee ??
and? have you lived there? are you a woman? -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Livetotravel][quote=alafairnadia] strong Texan women are white, empowered, wealthy, and, frankly, playing a game with the men making decisions.
Uh, Barbara Jordon, Sheila Jackson Lee ??
and? have you lived there? are you a woman?
ahh, I see the issue. sorry. the part up there that says "strong Texan women" should be as such - in quotes. sorry for the misunderstanding. -
I did find it interesting that so many self labeled "feminists" are voting for Barrack Obama. I don't mind that she may be a "bitch", or is cold, etc. But there is something about her that never sat well with me completely.
I simply don't trust her - and now Bill for that matter.
The Obama Somali photograph thing: very unfortunate, desperate and sad on the part of the Clinton Campaign. The Clintons, once again, want to make sure that barrack, you know, "is the "Black guy" in case you didn't know and " He cant be trusted, white people".
Or perhaps, it is very fortunate for everyone becuase this (and other recent incidents) reveals who the Clintons really are as never (willingly) seen (admitted) before. This starts to open up a whole picture about the Clinton's for the "true believers". Based on their recent questionable behavior, one may now start thinking and looking at other "unethical" things in their past; Things that have haunted them throughout their careers. Things that their supporters - and even the Clinton's - claimed it was a "vast right wing conspiracy"...but maybe, after all, they were on to something about Slick Willy, his wife and their scheming. They simply do not know how to lose gracefully.
Regarding Colin Powell.
I have great respect for him and he is definitely qualified to be President and he has the policy, military and command experience. But he blew it at the U.N in 2003 being a Bush cronie and "good soldier". Bush essentially destroyed Powell's chances of ever becoming President because of that UN presentation on Iraq in 2003. And it is a shame because he would have had success in an election - even as a black Republican candidate - similar to what Barrack is having now as a democrat (had he NOT been involved in that UN debacle).
Even as a republican, Powell would have brought many Democrats, independents and even some liberals to his side had it not been for Iraq II. And NO ONE would dare f*ck with that man's character, experience, race, decisions or record (minus the UN).
Oh yea, The Clintons are now officially suck. -
I saw a woman reading a magazine on the train today (not sure which rag it was) that had a pic of Chelsea and a caption that read "Chelsea is a flirt, just like her father." whether Hillary wins or not (and it's looking like not is the answer but whatever), the Clinton family isn't done.
also. wrt Colin, there's a clear reason why he didn't run for president and it went way beyond being a toadie for the Bush administration. he would have had to pick a running mate that would have almost immediately made a good president. hopefully, Barack won't have to experience what the Powell family feared - it wasn't my hope for Colin and isn't my hope for Barack - but the reality is that the threats were there. -
Frank Rich's Op Ed "The Audacity of Hopelessness" was really interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/opinion/24rich.html?em&ex=1204174800&en=193183afa768c8db&ei=5087%0A -
Just noticed at right here (on this very site) the Google AdSense ad that the McCain org has just placed:
(in the Adsense network, automagically landing here)
Meh. Lame.
Well, at least it's payin' the bills.
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My mom is exactly the sort of woman Rush Limbaugh was thinking of when he coined that hateful term "femiNazi", and my mother HATES Hilary Clinton.
I don't know specifically why because I hardly ever speak to her, but since I've absorbed her feminist ideals, I'll make a stab at it.
My biggest problem with her is that she's a sheep in wolf's clothing. Both she and Bill are, which is why I never voted for Bill. They make themselves out to be all progressive to get votes, but once in office, they sell those ideals out to get contributions. NAFTA, anyone? The Iraq war vote? This woman wouldn't know a principle if it bit her. I think this is what rubs my mom the wrong way. My dad is pro-Obama ("He's a Harvard man!") and my mom is anti-Clinton.
I was reading on a Republican blog (don't remember where, sorry) where one Republican said that it wasn't because Hilary was female that he was against her. He thought Barbara Boxer would make a good president. Barbara Boxer, of course, is at the political opposite of the spectrum from this guy, but his point was that Boxer stood on her ideals and didn't pander for votes, and that would make her a worthy president.
At some point, it does stop being about gender and starts being about the person. If it was truly about her being female, Clinton would never have made it to the senate, let alone run for president. Her campaign is imploding because of the disconnect between her words and her actions, not her gender.
She does get extra vilification that a male candidate wouldn't get, though. If she were male, people would just say that "he's untrustworthy", but because we do live in a misogynist culture, she gets extra abuse hurled on her.
Which is unfair. But that's no reason to vote for her. -
Here's Clintonian fear-mongering at it's worse...as she's fond of saying, "Right out of the Karl Rove playbook."
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/142.aspx -
Yes, here it is:
Yay. FUD politics. Yet another move right out of the very Rove playbook she bemoans out of the other side of her mouth.
Answered quite handily, sticking to issues and record not mere negative conjecture...
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Actually, I don't think this was out of Karl Rove's playbook, but Lyndon Johnson's:
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a close friend of mine, who is also a staunch republican, has been giving $$ to clinton's campaign, solely because clinton is a woman. so have a bunch of her friends, and we totally had a weep-fest about how awful all the bullshit has been in clinton's treatment by the media in this campaign ... in the middle of the feminist art area of the brooklyn museum on saturday night. (yes, if you saw an asian woman and a chubby white girl having a weep-fest while talking about how awful it is that people keep making fun of that yellow jacket ... you saw me and my friend)
there are a lot of us out there who just can't get past the blatant unfairness of the way people think about women -- and yes, there's a lot of internalized misogyny among women, which is why I say *people* and not *men*.
clinton may be dead in the water, this election, but even the nyt commentator folks on ny1 sunday morning were acknowledging that she's taken a lot of unfair questioning and hard knocks from the press that obama was spared.
and, in terms of the karl rove playbook - it's a winning formula, isn't it? maybe not if you're a WOMAN, but it works. -
There is simply no argument that Hillary gets the worst treatment by the media - here's a must read post from Media Matters that fairly sums it up...
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712310001 -
Livetotravel wrote: There is simply no argument that Hillary gets the worst treatment by the media - here's a must read post from Media Matters that fairly sums it up...
spoken like a ...
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712310001
forget it. -
She's baaaaack.....
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how could this have possibly happened, 7180? it doesnt make sense!
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mr. met wrote: how could this have possibly happened, 7180? it doesnt make sense!
She won't have made any real gains on Obama in delegates, especially once the Texas caucus results are in.
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i know, carnivore
that doesnt change the fact that hillary had a HUGE night right when she needed it most
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