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Rant - $270 fine for running a red light on a bike, really???
Rant - I just spoke to one of my friends who was just stopped by 3 cops (yes, 3) in Crown Heights for running a red light while on his bike. According to him, no cars where in sight. The fine for this violation was $270. Conversely, a red light camera ticket for an automobile is $50. I realize a camera cannot identify the driver, but seriously which can potentially cause more damage - a speeding car or a bicyclist.
During the last six months, a number of my friends have been given a variety of bike related tickets - from no helmet, to walking their bikes on the sidewalk into a building. Although, I appreciate the NYC police department's concern for the public's well being, to be honest they should know better. I cannot believe that the police does not have anything better to do in Crown Heights. Perhaps go after the guys who are doing wheelies on their dirt bikes on Eastern Parkway, or the 4-wheel ATVs that speed down Lincoln Place. How about the drug deals that take place in the open on Franklin Ave and Nostrand or the teenagers that smoke pot and drink 40s out in the open. Do we not have any more significant quality of life crimes to go after?
Comments
sounds like your friend has had other red light tickets. the fee goes up after the first red light ticket, and again after the second one. live and learn.
and alas, what ever you do there will always be a worse offense. its pretty facile to complain that all the other offenses should be enforced before they enforce the thing you do.
i feel your pain. im no angel on my bike. the cops enforce what is easiest to enforce so tell your friend to watch the lights and be aware of his surroundings. really, he ran a light in front of three cops?
I asked the same question about whether he had other outstanding tickets and he is new to NY so no other tickets. I guess I am just frustrated...
I don't believe you need prior tickets to get hit with the $270 fine.
This article seems to agree: http://bikenyc.org/q-i-got-red-light-ticket-today-270-there-must-be-mistake-right
It seems pretty common
http://www.google.com/search?ei=o1PnUdf8KdS44APKoYGYCA&q=bike+red+light+nyc+$270&oq=bike+red+light+nyc+$270&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...32786.37050.0.37963.5.5.0.0.0.0.615.1801.2-2j2j0j1.5.0....0...1c.1.21.mobile-gws-serp.R7zA8Rvk-vI
Sadly yes, a cyclist can get fined the same as a car for running a red light. I'm not going to start the debate whether or not bikes should run red lights.
I've been saying this for a while on this board but the NYPD doesn't give a shit about anything that isn't a gun crime or isn't an easy way to make their quota. It seems their deathly afraid of doing anything that could be mistaken for actual police work.
I don't get why their going after bikes though. The last time I cyclist killed someone other than themselves was 2006. So yes the NYPD's actions are infuriating.
Were all the tickets written by the 77th precinct? I wasn't aware the 77th was taking part in the city wide totally spontaneous and no way planed out ticketing blitz. What intersections were the tickets issued at?
Obviously there was at least another car there -- a police car.
Watch out for those.
They're going after bikes because of high-level directives to calm the bicycling culture, which until the early naughts was relatively small in numbers and totally unrestrained by law and decorum.
Bloomberg's policies, bolstered by social trends around the country, have greatly increased the presence of bicyclists in the city, as well as the amenities available to them. The other side of this is the aggressive policing, which is aimed to make cyclists think twice before running red lights or riding on sidewalks.
Even as a bicyclist who has personally been ticketed in seemingly absurd ways, I have to say it's effective at changing people's behaviors and I see the rationale behind it.
Eastbloc-
When such fines are posted all over the web, they may be effective in not only changing the behavior of the individual biker, but all of those who read it.
Times Up.
There's no law as far as I know for riding with or without a helmet. I think it's recommended or there might be a law for those under under 14. Also no one over the age of 14 should be riding on a sidewalk.
I'll only make this point and I have been a bike rider in NYC (four boroughs) for over 45 years. You asked for bike lanes. You got them and of course they do make it safer for bike riders but somebody has to pay for them and they're taking it out of the pockets of bike riders. I don't agree with this but that's what I think.
Youbetcha-
Bike lanes are not funded by tickets from bikers breaking the laws. It is a federal program.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/bike/home.shtml
And, now here are some PDFs for everyone: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/bike/mp.shtml
The truth is that every licensed driver has had to at least familiarize themselves with local traffic laws as part of the process of getting licensed. The expectation is that they are aware of all of the commonly cited laws, and a couple of the not-so-common.
Bikers have requested that they be given greater access and protection on the streets, but there is no attempt by the city to require a commiserate level of education for bikers. Therefore, people rely on what they believe is "right" or "makes sense" rather than complying with the law.
I only bike recreation-ally, but I know that it is against the law to run red lights, ride on the sidewalk, change lanes in front of other vehicles without signaling, ride against traffic, etc. That doesn't stop me from doing some of those things, but I wouldn't complain about it if I got caught because the reality is I know I'm in the wrong.
Also, a red light camera ticket is $50 but getting pinched by a cop for running a red light in a car is also $270. Bikers won't get the camera tickets, because there isn't any way to identify them from the camera shots (no license plate).
I'm not some anti-cyclist douche, but I will say that I wish I had $270 for every time I've nearly been hit by someone on a bike running a red light.
I'm not above occasionally treating a red light at a lonesome intersection like a stop sign.
However, if you don't have enough situational awareness to know whether there's a cop around, you probably don't have enough situational awareness to safely run a red light.
Neither walking a bike down the sidewalk (not riding it) nor riding without a helmet is a violation of any law. If anyone you know has gotten a ticket for that, they should publicize it and talk to an advocacy organization like Transportation Alternatives.
I, too, was stopped by three cops, in my case for not having a light on my bike. I thought that using so many officers for a simply traffic offense was wasteful, but then I considered the possibility (and the fact that these officers looked fresh out of high school) that it was a training exercise, of sorts (not to mention another example of El Bloombito's relentless pursuit of revenue). I still run red lights all the time, but now make sure I do a quick check at the intersection before breaking the law.
Jack, were you stopped between dusk and dawn? Did you get a ticket? When did this happen?
I've submitted this thread as a tip to STREETSBLOG. Hopefully we can bring this shameful, heavy handed and wasteful use of desperately needed police resources to light.
Homeowner a car followed me while honking for about a quarter of a block when I took the lane due to illegally double parked cars this morning. Obviously many drivers don't know or care about the law.
Everyone already knows about this use of police resources, and as whynot pointed out above, at least half the point of the policy is to get people to think twice. So by posting about it, you're doing exactly what they want you to do. Go for it!
Breaking laws, as well as random and selective enforcement of laws, certainly isn't a rare phenomena.
Imagine how many bikes could be stopped if the police really wanted to enforce the laws applicable to bikes!
Look at all these laws: http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/nybikes.htm
Here's what I sent them.
Hello,
I've been a long time reader and I wanted to bring a recent crackdown on cyclists in Crown Heights to your attention. The police have been giving out tickets for running red lights. As well as issuing citations for doing legal things such as not wearing a helmet and walking a bike on a sidewalk. It appears that three officers approach a cyclist and then issue a citation.
I'd like to point out that Crown Heights is still troubled by violent crime such as gun violence and drug dealing as well as the occasional homicide. I find it abhorrent that the NYPD has decided to focus much needed law enforcement resources in such a completely wasteful and unhelpful manner. Furthermore I'd like to point out that cars routinely speed and drive in an aggressive manor and are rarely ticketed. The NYPD allows cars to drive in such a manner that the mere act of crossing Eastern Parkway seems to be a mortally dangerous act.
I'd like to bring this thread on the neighborhood forum Brooklynian to your attention. http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/rant-270-fine-for-running-a-red-light-in-a-bike-really#post-770467 In it residents of Crown Heights, myself included, discuss and debate this crackdown.
I sincerely thank you for your time,
****
I know this is routinely done. But frankly when police resources are so thin in a neighborhood that has crime issues I think someone needs to call them out on it.
Someday, the NYPD is going to arrest a murderer and some reporter is going to ask him what he thinks.
The murder will respond, "I don't know why the police spent all this effort hunt me down for killing my 4 year old when there are way worse people out there".
...and upon hearing it, I am going to smile.
Yes beacuse running a red light on a bike
equalsdoesn't equal killing a kid. Doing so in a car very well might. I've said it before and I'll say it again if your killed it doesn't matter how your just as dead. It's high time the NPYD realizes this and prioritizes resources appropriately. May I ask wouldn't these officers who are spending their time writing tickets be better off trying to solve this? http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/june-27-2013-woman-fatally-stabbed-on-park-pl-between-classon-and-franklinThe person who gets a ticket for littering makes a similar speech.
I smile at them too.
Bottom line is that it's the police job to enforce the law. The OP broke the law. He got pinched for it. Yes, there are people that are doing worse things than what he did, but he was as they say in the old country "low hanging fruit". And according to Rudy Giuliani and his broken window theories, you go after the low hanging fruit first as a way to send a message that other worse crimes won't be tolerated.
The cops aren't going to be receptive to the "But he was doing it too" defense, especially when bikers admit to breaking the law.
After a certain point there are "negative returns to scale" to everything. It seems the NYPD have concluded that assigning too many cops to investigating murders is a bad idea, and that some resources are best used addressing other matters.
It makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns
Hopefully the person who go the ticket (the OP's friend) will continue to tell everyone s/he knows about the incident, so less violations of this kind will occur and the police force can be downsized.
Since you've asked, the answer is "no."
Newguy, I was cycling through Bushwick and it was in April. I'll be the first to admit that I was in the wrong - I just found it odd that three officers, including on in a patrol car, were required for such a minor offense. That's why I thought it might be an exercise, where the newer cop addresses the matter while the more experienced ones observ and then provide feedback after I left. Also, I guess they have no idea who I am until they run a check
I paid the ticket via mail ($90) and installed lights on my bike, so I guess they taught me that much. Now I slow down at corners and do a quick spot check before blowing red lights and also veer towards lower-crime areas, as there is a smaller police presence there and, hence, a slimmer chance of getting caught again. A few times I've blown red lights or ridden on the sidewalk in full view of cop cars and they've done nothing, so enforcement is definitely uneven.
Uh oh. Now you can get a ticket for running yellow lights and being too chatty!
http://gothamist.com/2013/07/22/nypd_tickets_cyclist_for_pedaling_t.php
The NYPD is literately making this shit up at this point.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/nyregion/a-new-breed-of-lawyers-focuses-on-bicyclists-rights.html
Also see http://www.bicycledefensefund.org/summons.html regarding the laws in question.
The NYPD states they will be focusing on bikers breaking laws over the next two weeks. It might get expensive
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/nypd-launches-2-week-bicycle-safety-crackdown/?utm_content=bufferf752d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Bikers often make me smile with their belief that enforcement should be tied to risk.
It is as if they are arguing with an opponent that is rarely seen: One which thinks bikers are as dangerous as a motor vehicle.
It is as if they can't see the real reason the police are being told to ticket bikers who break the law: Their inconsiderate behavior impacts the quality of life of others.
...like littering, people who don't pick up after their dogs etc.
The only real difference is that bikers are pretty easy to catch.
It is amusing to watch them not figure it out. Listening to bikers complain about life at Transportation Alternatives events is often awesome in this regard.
Whynot as someone who usually has such a firm grasp on what's going it pains me that you're so wrong in this case. I hear time and time again cyclists are jerks argument online. Yet no one other then the occasional car driver, usually cabbie, or jay walker states this to my face. I doubt you would state this to my face. It's an argument based on emotion expressed only via a keyboard and unbacked by anything. How do we negatively impact anyone's life? How do we effect anyone else's quality of life at all? Well other then forcing jaywalkers to look up as they cross midblock? Or reducing the number of commuters omitting greenhouse gases? Are we falling back on old crutches of they pass to close or they all blow red lights? Its been proven that cyclists don't pass as closely as some pedestrians believe and many more stop at redlights then commonly believed.
As for TA meetings I find sad that you view matters of literal life and death as mere sitcoms for your enjoyment.
At least you acknowledge the purpose of this crackdown as only going after wasy targets.
Unfortunately several on this board have refused to acknowledge there is anything wrong with pedestrians and cyclists getting killed. Some have actually condoned killings by engaging in victim blaming. So yes in their mind bicycles are more dangerous then cars.
Once and a while they hit a ped.
I saw this devolve into a fight once: A biker hit a ped, ped and biker were knocked over, then the ped's friend threw the bike into traffic to prevent the escape of the biker, and both kicked the biker several times. The police were not involved.
Peds are usually not going to engage in such rage, so they enlist the police for the occasional crackdown and then smile at all of the tickets that are announced to appease us at the end of the crackdown.
Note: I don't sanction such violence.
My preferences can be ranked roughly as follows:
1. Bikers obey the law (many already do).
2. The populace enlist the police to crack down on bikers who break the law.
The problems really arise during #2. The police tend to use such crackdowns as carte blanche to ticket people merely on a bike, regardless of whether they are breaking the law. This allows the police to amass huge numbers of tickets, which makes the peds happy, and allows the police to return to do tasks they enjoy more than ticketing bikers.
Every few months, the cycle repeats.
I expect it will continue until bikers have more power than car drivers and peds, and/or somehow stop their fellow bikers from breaking the law.
I don't see either as happening. Ever.
Although still in the formation stage, this theory may provide me with yet another reason why I am not opposed to the biker crackdown:
For the next two weeks, it gives the police something relatively non disruptive to do.
How about you guys focus on making killers I.e. car drivers obey the law huh? Why do people always moan about cyclists needing to make cyclists obey the law. Why don't pedestrians feel the need to make jay walkers obey the law? 8th Ave is a horrible bike lane. People use it for parking and as a sidewalk. Actually I've never seen as many cyclists pedestrian conflicts as i see in midtown. And you know what causes it? Jay walking. Its an epidemic there. But yeah your right I'll go after all cyclists who break the law. Cause apparently cyclists are supposed to police each other now. Why we're at it maybe we should bring back the lynch mob?
Non disruptive? What plant are you living on? Their blocking lanes of traffic intimidating law abiding members of the public. How the hell is that non disruptive?
Clearly, you have not been watching current mass media. At the moment, the police need some easy wins. They need to show that they are willing to appease the masses by issuing a bunch of tickets to fruits that are slightly higher up the tree. Bikers win!
Don't worry, once this crackdown is over, the police will soon go back to the low hanging fruit of the criminal justice system.
Until then, bikers should avoid the police if at all possible. It shouldn't be hard to out smart the police over the next few weeks.
If you don't think you can do it, buy a subway pass or take taxis.
The enemy advances, we retreat.
The enemy camps, we harass.
The enemy tires, we attack.
The enemy retreats, we pursue.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yBkfjW8ZQJAC&lpg=PT380&ots=d17H7f-nGN&dq="the enemy advances, we retreat" guerrilla war&pg=PT380#v=onepage&q="the enemy advances, we retreat" guerrilla war&f=false
I wish bikers the best. I give them the following advice: Retreat.
I am also with you.
However, I don't think anyone is asking an apology or expecting a biker to do things that are not in their best interests.
The only question is "Over the next two weeks, how many bikers will think something was in their best interests, only to realize it was not?"
The key words are "said to be". Guys selling loosies and water are usually charged with vending without a license, or some such offense.
...and I believe most are released from jail after around 23 hours.
During the next few weeks, the bikers are just going to get fines.
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140814/upper-east-side/elderly-jogger-struck-killed-by-cyclist-central-park-police-say
Accidents happen. No charges have been filed.
Thank God cyclists kill such an extremely small number of people compared to the scores of lives car drivers destroy in this city every year. (Not to mention doing far less to pollute the city, destroy property, stress infrastructure and government budgets, etc., etc., etc.)
Car drivers do this in the city nearly every single day. This was news enough for you to note, whynot, b/c it's so very rare.
I am just glad the biker wasn't charged with any offense. I would hate for the police to make an example of someone who hit a pedestrian and allege criminality when they don't believe there is any.
Likewise, I am glad this old guy was not hit by a car; cars are more deadly than bikes, and he would be even more dead.
No need to make examples of people where criminal intent can't be proven. Just aggressively work to reduce the ability for people to unintentionally kill people and destroy things with any kind of deadly machinery or weapons; as we do with guns in this city. People who wish to equate annoyance with potentially and often deadly behavior should be marginalized; as we should with the NRA. Weird.
When one thinks about it, it would be amazing if bike - ped accidents killed more peds than car - ped ones: There are more cars, they are larger and they travel at higher speeds.
Seems weird that Bike advocates talk so much about this.
....I don't like that or police bullying
Are the victims the people who have been told what the law is, yet break it, and then get a ticket or smooshed?
It is a favorite of my 11 year old niece.
However, such a blitz would lack the rhetoric of the hard core bikers.
Unlike hard core bikers, there are very few (if any) hard core peds. As a result, peds do not seem to feel they are saving the world against evil, polluting cars and therefore deserve exemptions from laws.
Peds seem to understand that there are dumb ways to die (see video), and being one of the dead or injured does very little to advance your cause.
As result, peds continue to be injured and die with frightening regularity but few feel they are martyrs. They are simply dead and injured, and one tries to not be among them.
The defense of pedestrians is, rightfully so, far and away more often cited by sustainable urban planning groups than is that of cyclists. Because they are far more numerous and killed far more often.
This may be even better than the recent claims here that cars never get above 25 mph on EP or Flatbush. Just fantastic work.
However, that seems like a false choice.
...and, so far, the majority of NYC has yet to perceive any gains from the increase in biking.
Except, of course, seeing attractive people wearing spandex.
A part of me really loved Singapore when I visited there.
However, I would not want to endure the struggle that would be required to make NYC into Singapore.
...I would instead just move to Singapore. Give me a society with established norms.
http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/woman-dies-drunken-bklyn-crash-article-1.1906828
However, I also bike around brooklyn all the time and in my experience the casual bikers are fairly safe. I tend to do the idaho stop and consider myself a safe biker. From this perspective, I find the enforcement/fines over the top.