Starbucks on Franklin Ave?
  • I heard a rumor that the MySpace store front next to Pine Tree was going to become a Starbucks.

    Anyone else hear anything?


  • I'll tell you right now, personally, with Breuklan Coffee House, Zelda's, Pulp & Bean, and now CT Muffin on Nostrand, Starbucks Isn't even a blip on my radar (not that it is normally). Not sure how large that space is but we could use a damn bookstore!


  • Totally with you, and I wonder what happened to the previous post I saw. I suspect no one is going to abandon any of their other coffee holes to go to a Franklin Ave Starbucks. But I do expect that there would be a sufficient demographic that goes nowhere right now to make it work.

    So I embrace it in that regard if it does come. I expect that it will make us a permanent Impact Zone, and that can't be a bad thing!


  • The Starbucks demographic is also expected to grow, as more market rate rentals and condos become available in the area over the next few years.

    ....the amount of local units expected to come on line in 2014 is substansial.


  • Looks like Starbucks Inc. deleted my post. Sorry, Starbucks. I couldn't comment without swearing. Won't happen again.


  • Are you looking forward to the possiblity/rumor of a Starbucks, or annoyed by said possibility/rumor?


  • Also, what's a "book"? Is that like an LP?


  • Do we really want a Starbucks here?? I'm no Starbucks hater, and I partly admire Howard Schultz for some of his business ingenuity, but a Starbucks on Franklin Ave will not fare well for many of our lovely local establishments. All the merchants on our amazing strip are part of this community, none should be jeopardized by an anonymous profit machine.

    Whatever your opinion, please share it with Starbucks: https://www.facebook.com/Starbucks

    Or @Starbucks on twitter.

    AND PLEASE stop into MySpace to tell them what you think: 722 Franklin Avenue, http://www.yelp.com/biz/myspace-nyc-brooklyn, ask for Guy. Consider asking him why the rent for that store is $7000/month. That's a huge increase over the normal rates around here. They are doing the same thing with many residential properties in our neighborhood. Even as a property owner, that makes me very nervous. It's artificial and it's greedy and it's dangerous. MySpace doesn't live here, they only exploit and profit. Sure, owners can charge whatever they want, but it's your neighborhood and you should share your opinion about how it's being developed. When I last spoke with MySpace about their practices, they told me "we're not here to make friends, we're here to make money". Is that OK with you? If not, don't be silent about it, do your part. Stop renting apartments from MySpace. Tell your friends to stop renting apartments from MySpace. Every apartment rented from MySpace contributes to their ability/power to buy more properties here. If MySpace owns the property you live in, consider moving if you can. Or at least demand lower rent. Act fast, before you get priced out.


  • If I was Starbucks, I would wait until the new building is finished at EP and Franklin, and open a location there.

    Much better foot traffic and visibilty.


  • I'm backin the starbucks it was only a matter of time anyway...


  • I don't have a problem with MySpace or Starbucks being here to make money. If there is a market for their services, they will get their price, and if there isn't, well then they'll need to do something different.

    By all means, vote with your dollars. I doubt moving out of your MySpace rental is going to hurt them much, though. And I doubt their customers are the ones that need to worry about being priced out. MySpace apartments are already at the fringe high end of the spectrum in terms of price per square foot.


  • Eastbloc - I'm sad to read your lackadaisical perspective on the situation. Based on your other posts around here, it seems like you're pretty intelligent and that you understand at least the basics of how the real estate world works. So surely you understand the risks and repercussions of the actions of MySpace, and what impact they are having on this community. Although MySpace prices are at the fringe high end of the spectrum, that spectrum will continue to change with time. MySpace has been pushing/changing the spectrum for the last 5 years, very quietly. They continue to buy more and more property, which gives them more control over that price spectrum (and their property buying techniques are disgusting at best, which is a whole separate topic). The reality is that every single person that has ever used MySpace services to rent an apartment has helped fuel their coffers, enabling them to buy more property, which in turn increases their control over this neighborhood (a neighborhood they don't live in, one they admit they only want to profit from). Every single one of them. Most people don't even realize it, or understand all the dynamics. That's why it's so important to educate people and make them aware. It's hard enough to get people to act on something even when they do know all the facts, but education is the first step to progress. If you want to be part of the solution, maybe you want to consider taking more responsibility and/or action. If you really don't see any problem and you think their practices are just fine, I have to respect that view, but it sure does make me wonder.

    I realize this presents a tricky conflict for property owners. Property owners want to see their property increase in value, so one instinct is to support/praise/remain silent about a company like MySpace who is known to be artificially and rapidly increasing prices, and doing so via very unethical practices (Crow Hill Community Association comes to mind here). I own several properties in this neighborhood, yet I remained alarmed and concerned. And I do put my money where my mouth is - the storefront I own on Franklin Avenue was recently offered for rent for $2,500/month. Sure, as an owner, $7,000/month is more attractive than $2,500/month. But at what cost? I'm not wealthy, nor am I ignorant about economics, I just choose different values and I vote with my dollars. I don't expect everyone to follow these morals, but I do hope there are enough of us in this community to keep it real.

    Two truisms that come to mind: (1) When money becomes the primary focus, other concerns have a strange tendency to fade away. (2) When someone knows about a problem and chooses to ignore it, that person is actually part of the problem.


  • I wonder who will rent the MySpace spot if they are not able to attract a Starbucks.

    The space probably can't accommodate a food place. It is too expensive for a Dollar Store.

    Maybe a high end salon for the newly arrived brownstone owners? ....they don't seem to be keeping their $ locally, perhaps because they don't have places that cater to them yet.


  • I don't see MySpace as being categorically different than any number of broker-landlords operating in New York City. It's true that I see them asking top dollar for space. They also invest in and turn around many storefronts and residential buildings that were previously underutilized or not utilized at all, turning eyesores into attractive properties.

    To some extent, they have led the charge to revitalize the neighborhood, whether they live here or not, and whether they pursue this goal out of self-interest or philanthropy. They deserve to get what the market will bear for this activity.

    I don't have a problem with rising rents. Rents are addressed by the market. No one has the right to live in any particular place, if they cannot afford to do so. The rising rents in Crown Heights are nothing more than a reflection of the degree to which this has become a better place to live over the last five years. And I'm not convinced that the activities of MySpace have been entirely detrimental to this process.


  • For the record, I think $7k/mo for that space is nuts, and I doubt they'll get it. They'd have to net $400/day just to pay the rent and minimum wage to a proprietor. There's no way a Starbucks could pull that here. The only way to do it would be with a wildly successful bar or restaurant, and that's becoming increasingly difficult to pull off around here.


  • I don't have a problem with Starbucks, I just have a problem with Starbucks being on Franklin in that location. Yes, it's a corporate institution, and yes, it gobbles up mom-and-pops. I don't think the loyal clientele for Pulp & Bean, Bruekelyn, or that other new one farther north will leave their haunts for Starbucks. I just don't see the need for yet another coffee shop on Franklin between Eastern Parkway and Prospect. Where's the originality? How about some Colombian FOOD instead of Colombian roasts?


  • Now that Mayfields is open, I'll have to see how it does, before I decide whether the area will support another sit down restaurant.

    At the moment, I continue to like my idea of a salon for salaried women making over $70k a year.

    I think the neighborhood is ready.


  • A friend who lives upstairs reports that 742 Franklin will be an Italian restaurant of the sit-down variety, aiming to open May 1st: http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-franklin-restaurant-news-742.html


  • Yes, the full text of the alcohol permit request stated they were going to become Italian. When I wrote this post, I had only learned that a permit had been requested:

    http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/more-alcohol-more-places-jan-2013

    ...Those who want a Starbucks will either have to wait, or go to one of the dozen or so coffee houses already in operation.


  • The liquor license passed CB8 today.


  • Nice. I hope it's a good restaurant, but if it had some names behind it I'd expect we would know them already.


  • Always looking around I agree with you. These people don't realize that they will be priced out in a matter of mins I'm a area landlord and I see it coming I see one bedrooms going to $2500 it's just a matter of time . Then these renters will have six people in a one bedroom struggling to pay the rent. They do loooove this area and very soon they will only be able to visit not live here. I just realized the other day the assoc with my space and crow hill block association WOW how the membership allow that to happen aren't there any by laws in the block association?


  • Of course people in this area are aware the rent prices are going up. That is how a lot of people ended up here, they were priced out of Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, etc. If you're lucky you buy or at the least get into rent stabilized places and hang on as long as you can. Then you move further east or Queens, or south towards Bay Ridge and the process starts all over.


  • The Italian place to be located at 742 Franklin will face some stiff competition from the new owner of the former location of Abigails:

    http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/is-abigails-kaput

    He is an established businessman, who already operates two Italian places.


  • Getting into rent stabilized apt is slim to none all off u price out people of park slope and carrol gardens will be once again priced out of crown height they will make sure of that watch and see. Queens awaits!!


  • No one (this includes residents and businesses) should get comfortable with the status quo.

    Change is constant.

    If the neighborhood gets poorer again, these places will close....


  • Huh? I was priced out of Prospect Heights and had no problem at all getting a rent stabilized place. I'm not denying that people will be priced out. It is not news to anyone, especially those who have already been part of the wave. You saying "all you people will be priced out ahahaha (evil chuckle)". Also, I'm not sure why this makes you so gleeful? As a landlord you should just be happy so many people want to live here and "looooove this area". Why are you so happy at the idea of people moving to Queens?


  • Tateinbk don't get too comfortable in that rent stabilized apt it's not a concrete situation. That's just a fact . Am I gleeful ? No I'm a survivor and I've seen more than u. Remember the longest liver sees the most.


  • Why not the change took a good 50 yrs to happen back In The late fifties the white flight hit this area like a brick and now they are flying back its cyclical .


  • No one should get comfortable, ever.

    Even if you are an owner, you should be prepared to leave the neighborhood if it takes a turn for the worse.

    ...you'll get accused of abandoning the 'hood when times got hard, but you will get to keep your savings and safety intact.


  • Why not I have lived here and skipped by bullets in the poorer bad days, and it was never about the money it's my home. It was never about flipping for profit never ever


  • For many, it is now.

    ...out of greed or fear, they will leave you here when (and if) times get bad again.

    P.S. Others will leave merely because they get old and need a retirement home...


  • My neighbor just sold and took his seven million with him. That's him! Seven million does not move me


  • chloeroyale, you don't know anything about me and what I have or have not seen.

    Nothing is a concrete plan, not even owning outright. I also never said I planned on being here forever, just that getting into rent stabilized or owning is the best way to be able to afford a rapidly changing neighborhood as long as possible.


  • Chloe-

    Whether you move based on how much someone will pay you in the present market is up to you.

    ...your neighbor may have concluded that s/he will never get a better deal.

    While you state you are not motivated by the money, do you think the value of your property will continue to rise?


  • Why I really don't think about how much my property is worth and I'm being honest with u I thank God for my health everyday and that's what's important to me along with helping those I can . I'm not that kind if investor I'm sorry but that's how I feel.


  • Oh tateinbk u seem upset cheer up things will get better for u. Take deep breaths and relax. U will get there one day don't worry.


  • chloe-

    There is no need to be sorry.

    Long term residents that are not exclusively motivated by money keep neighborhoods stable and safe. They know the history of the 'hood, and how to get things done with the other long timers.

    Those connections and long time local friends can't easily be assigned a dollar value. Cherish them.


  • Thanks why not u understand!


  • tatinbk wrote: getting into rent stabilized or owning is the best way to be able to afford a rapidly changing neighborhood as long as possible.

    tate-

    Another technique to avoid having to move so often is to move to an area which seems pretty immune to neighborhood change. Look for a stable area, with lots of long time, residents.

    This way, you can avoid the positives and negatives of an "improving" neighborhood: higher food prices, lower crime, cleaner streets, higher rent, etc.

    This way, you can avoid the positives and negatives of a "declining" neighborhood: more crime, few vegetables in local stores, dirty streets, poorly maintained building etc.

    ....Bensonhurst and Sunset Park, and Bay Ridge come to mind as stable.


  • I've definitely thought of Bay Ridge. We've also talked of the Brooklyn Chinatown area. Regardless I am not willing to go without fresh vegetables.

    The problem with the more stable areas is they tend to be obnoxiously far away from the city. If I was smart I would probably make my next home back in Manhattan, this time further north in Inwood. Any further into Brooklyn and I'll never get a family member to come out and babysit.

    Right now I'm enjoying riding the edge of the gentrification wave. I was just in the Manhattan Valley area where I grew up and it just blew my mind. I expect it, I know it, but man.... As soon as I jump a couple income brackets we're heading back and renting a place from my father. And then I can be just as smug about how we got from gunshots and back alley dog fights to Whole Foods and schmancy Doggie Daycare. :)


  • Being smug is fun, but nobody seems to like smug people. That said, good luck on jumping those income brackets.

    I'm regularly in the City College area (137th St) and have been amazed at the changes in Hamilton Heights (formerly known as West Harlem).

    In addition to the stuff I mention above, I can now see kids playing outside again.

    Although I don't partake, I feel my ability to score heroin on the street has decreased.


  • Thank you. As all things, it will take some time, but the income brackets will be reached. Maybe 5 years and my plan has me up at least one. There are plans.... Oh yes...

    And yeah, it's hard to even get a bodega to sell loosies let alone heroin.


  • Go one why not and we all know he or she is smug ! What a turn off


  • U don't go to the right bodegas because as the stats show 60% of the cigs sold it New York are not taxed.


  • It's not Starbucks, but the new coffee place on Park Place is open (sorry if someone already posted this and I just can't find it). Got some photos and a little report over on ILFA (ILFA), but the relevant info is that it's a small indoor space with a lot of outdoor space, close to the shuttle stop, with a case full of organic chocolates. I'm thinking the location and the outdoor space (once spring and summer roll around, or even once it gets back to being 55 degrees in January) will help them capture some market share.


  • OMG IF STARBUCKS COMES THE NEIGHBORHOOD WILL LOSE ALL ITS CHARACTER AND CHARMED AND BE RUIIINNNNNNNNNED

    yawn


  • So many coffee shops, not a single bagel store on Franklin b/w eastern and atlantic! Holding out that this will become a reality eventually.


  • I love Franklin ave I love the idea of another coffe shop opening up on park place it makes for good competition and best for the consumer ! I love that it has a outdoor space maybe they will rent the space for small gatherings


  • What do you mean no bagel store? What about the Bean place? (I forget the exact name now, the one by Bob and Betty's)


  • Sorry, but that is not a bagel store.


  • Interesting to see the talk of a Starbucks coming.

    Two things to consider. Firstly, it is a sign that the neighborhood has arrived in a strangely symbolic way. This is both good and bad.

    Second, Starbucks decides if they want to come but the locals decide if they want to go. They will fund the store for 18 to 30 months as they need stores to lose money for tax purposes but sooner or later, they will close up shop and do what is called a consolidation. Personally, I would go to the mom end pop shops first.

    If I still lived on Franklin Avenue, I would not want a Starbucks. I do not hate them but they do nothing for the neighborhood and if you do nothing for the neighborhood, it is best if you do it elsewhere.

    (Please, please please, do not tell me they create jobs. Please do not tell me they save wales. Please do not tell me they sell chocolate made of bamboo in rain forests. Please, see then for what they are.)


  • Starbucks provides a valuable place to urinate without spending money.


  • ehgee said:

    Starbucks provides a valuable place to urinate without spending money.


    Who can argue with that?


  • Park Place said:

    If I still lived on Franklin Avenue, I would not want a Starbucks. I do not hate them but they do nothing for the neighborhood and if you do nothing for the neighborhood, it is best if you do it elsewhere.

    (Please, please please, do not tell me they create jobs. Please do not tell me they save wales. Please do not tell me they sell chocolate made of bamboo in rain forests. Please, see then for what they are.)


    what does Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean do for the neighborhood that Starbucks wouldn't?


  • mr. met said:

    what does Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean do for the neighborhood that Starbucks wouldn't?


    Reasonable question and I can write about my thoughts on it for days on end but suffice to say that Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean are owned by small time operators. Families and neighbors and friends who are invested in the neighborhood.

    Starbucks is monolithic and like Walmart, pushed out the small business people. Small shops, also known as Mom and Pop shops allow folks to work for themselves as opposed to working for a large company. As such, they call the shots, make the decisions and live or die based on their way of making it happen as opposed to being a pawn in a very large organization.

    If mom and pop shops disappear, we will lose a great deal. Independence, diversity, a bit of the American dream and the wonderful belief that a person with a vision can chart their own course; live their life on their terms. This is a lot to lose. Far more then just a cup of coffee.


  • One of the things I truly loathe about the new blood coming to New York City is this concept of "when I step out of my door I should have access to x". One of the things that made NY special was that you used to have specific areas of town that were known for specific things. Good chinese food- Chinatown. Department Stores- Midtown. High end- 5th Avenue. West Indian- Crown Heights. It made places that were good, destinations in their own right. It also meant that people who wanted those things went to parts of the city they otherwise would not have ventured into. Now, every neighborhood has to look like every other neighborhood.

    The homogeny is depressing.


  • I don't know if you can blame that on the new blood, so much as the economic factors that are causing franchises to thrive, and changes in the nature of immigration.

    To put it in rural terms: It does seem that throughout the country we are losing the "Small town main street" (urban equivalent: diverse shopping avenue) in favor of far away suburban style malls (urban equiv: Atlantic Center or Gateway Mall).

    Likewise, as immigration changes from mass events from select countries over a long period of time TO a phenomena that is more slow trickles of people from all over the world, the ethnic enclaves also are being affected.


  • But, its not just that. Its some of the issues that come to mind from the "What should go on Washington Avenue thread". Why does EVERY neighborhood need a bagel shop, a craft beer place, a bookstore, a children's clothing store and no one need a roti shop, a beauty supply store, or a McDonalds.

    At its core, its because the people who prefer the former don't use the latter. And certainly some of it is racial, but its more than that. Its the people who wish that Franklin looked like Smith Street or Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, or 5th Avenue in Park Slope, and not from the perspective of every storefront filled, but rather that every place should look like every other place.

    Its the sense that not being able to afford to live in Park Slope means that you need to remake where you live into a clone of Park Slope (pretty much guaranteeing that you won't be able to afford to live there eventually).

    And yes, changes in immigration are affecting ethnic enclaves, and changes in economics and globalization are affecting local communities, but underlying all of that is a feeling that I have that the unique nature of neigborhoods and the melding of culture that made NYC such a special place to live and grow up is being replaced by a sense that there is a particular class/cultural outlook that is acceptable and everything else is unimportant or not valid.


  • Mrs. Whynot wrote about that somewhat recently:

    By way of disclosure, I was white and middle class as a child (still am though not a child). I grew up in a neighborhood that was more diverse (racially, economically) than most in NYC - though is not now. My childhood took place in the 1970s.

    I am all for a diversity of places to shop. I don't have anything against a 99 cent store, but don't desire another one. And largely my wish list of stores mimics the type of places that I remember shopping at as a kid.

    There was Williams Bar-B-Que chicken, Murray's appetizing shop, Morris Brothers children's clothing store, Rosen Brothers meat store, the Towne Shop (when shopping for clothes with Mom), Party Cake and Lichtmans bakeries, West Side Camera and West Side Judaica. There were a couple of restaurants Chun-Cha-Fu and Taj Mahal are the only ones I can name though there was also a steak shop. There was a Five-and-Dime (Woolworths). There were a couple of bookstores, though the one I went to most was around the corner from the New Yorker Movie theater. A couple of places that I can't name anymore I can still remember the names of the owners/people behind the counter - the pet shop was owned by Tom and later his daughter Kate, the toy store by Jim. And there were a couple of supermarkets - Red Apple, Daitch (sp?) and Key Food and a bank - Dime. There were also a lot of places we did not shop.

    What strikes me about the list is that I can name places and workers who I haven't seen in decades. It is also diverse (I've not named a single place more than four blocks from the apartment in which I grew up) and did not involve chain stores for the most part.

    But here is one issue with the list, almost none of the places still exist. They have been replaced by up-scale chains. And truthfully, that neighborhood needs another bank or Banana Republic about as much as Nostrand needs another 99 cent store. (Again just my opinion.)

    A desire for shopping diversity hits up against two factors that did not exist back in days of my childhood - the big box (Target) and the category killer (Toys-R-Us). I don't know if my parents would have gone to Morris Brothers for my clothing if a Target had existed. And for low-income people, having the choice of lower-cost places to shop, both in the neighborhood and outside of it, is imperative. But for those of us who can afford it, there is a lot to be said for the personal service at Sisters rather than the discount at Lowes.

    This brings up my question - one that I think is at the heart of redacted and many other of the people posting.

    How do we foster diverse economic development? One glimmer of hope is that the populace at all economic brackets in Brooklyn knows how to eat at non-chain restaurants. How do we similarly encourage shopping for everything else in the same way? And trust me, I don't have the answer to this.

    P.S. Mrs Whynot is not her actual name. When we got married she kept her last name.... and prefers Ms.

    She only uses Mrs. Whynot for fun.


  • What I think she is getting at, is that individuals (and even groups) have very little control over what business open up near them.

    ...The businesses merely open without the "permission" of the residents, with the hopes that people will shop at them.

    Then, the residents (be them old or new) don't have control of the behaviors of their fellow consumers as to whether they businesses are supported.

    The only way I could imagine such changes not occurring is via strict zoning and other regulations that prevent demographic changes in the residents, because I believe that once the demographics change, the existing business mix will either quickly adapt or perish.


  • Absolutely. But part of the big box vs. Mom & Pop debate is about people's willingness to accept diversity in their neighborhoods. If you don't go into a 99 cent store, even though they dominate your neighborhood, and instead trek to Target, what hope is there that you'll see the value in one? If you don't use ethnic haircare products, of course, you'll decry the fact that there are three within 5 blocks of your house, while at the same time not understanding that its almost impossible to find those products in mainstream drug and big box stores. The fact that those stores don't serve you, doesn't mean they don't have the right to exist and to serve others in the community.

    When economic development occurs around serving the "group-think middle" it doesn't just exclude Mom and Pop stores, it excludes anyone who doesn't service the group. So, even sucessful businesses like Cookies (children's clothing) won't have a place in Brooklyn because they sell inexpensive clothing for the masses and not $40 ironic tees for infants.


  • Correct.

    When the masses prefer the homogenous, anything with individuality is at risk.

    Clayfilms and I had a good discussion on this subject as it related to the threat CT Muffin poses to the Carib Bakeries on Nostrand. It is a pretty good read: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/connecticut-muffin-coming-to-nostrand-ave


  • This is a good discussion. As for what stores open, we have little control but as far as what stores survive, we have a great deal of control. It is the ultimate democracy and it is free of racism as I understand it. Simply stated, we vote with our dollars. Give the store your money and they stay. Do not give the store your money and eventually, they go.

    As for me, i would never go to a Target if I could go to a mom and pop store for the same things. I would even pay a bit more if i had to but passing up a mom and pop to go to Target makes me cringe.

    Vote with your dollars and see the results.


  • homeowner said:

    But, its not just that. Its some of the issues that come to mind from the "What should go on Washington Avenue thread". Why does EVERY neighborhood need a bagel shop, a craft beer place, a bookstore, a children's clothing store and no one need a roti shop, a beauty supply store, or a McDonalds.

    At its core, its because the people who prefer the former don't use the latter. And certainly some of it is racial, but its more than that. Its the people who wish that Franklin looked like Smith Street or Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, or 5th Avenue in Park Slope, and not from the perspective of every storefront filled, but rather that every place should look like every other place.

    Its the sense that not being able to afford to live in Park Slope means that you need to remake where you live into a clone of Park Slope (pretty much guaranteeing that you won't be able to afford to live there eventually).

    And yes, changes in immigration are affecting ethnic enclaves, and changes in economics and globalization are affecting local communities, but underlying all of that is a feeling that I have that the unique nature of neigborhoods and the melding of culture that made NYC such a special place to live and grow up is being replaced by a sense that there is a particular class/cultural outlook that is acceptable and everything else is unimportant or not valid.


    I would want a neighborhood to have all of the things you mentioned and more as those stores seem to fill the needs of so many of the "average" people in terms of the demands they have for goods and service.

    My favorite stretch of Franklin Avenue, from President Street to Park Place, if I could design it just for me, would have coffee shops (3), places for pizza (2 at a minimum) a food shop with meat and fish, a great pub/restaurant, a place to get great pastrami, 2 bodegas, a clothing store for some basics, a candy store, a bagel shop, a pharmacy, 5 or 6 very diverse restaurants a bookstore that was used books only and a place for ice cream.

    It is late and I am tired so I wonder what I am missing. As an aside, I would be thrilled if each of these stores was a mom and pop store. I am also thinking that to turn Franklin Avenue into a main drag type of a street lie those in Park Slope would be sad.

    A 99 cent store would be good because it is so very valuable in so many ways. What did I miss? Ohhhh, 2 or 3 places for breakfast. Nothing fancy or cute; just great eggs and bacon and strong coffee to start off a Saturday.

    One last thought. I like the occasional Starbucks but I like it in someone else's neighborhood as I pass though, not in my neighborhood.

    How did I do? Can I come back now? Apartments on Park Place available?


  • I think posters are getting at two things:

    1. Whether you are a business or a resident, you end up being affected by (and/or furthering) changes in the neighborhood largely against your will, and without your consent.

    2. People often act in ways to create and further "sameness", whether they realize it or not, and whether they like it or not.

    1 and 2 seem to bother some people more than others. Some people aren't bothered at all; They just accept them as facts of life.


  • Bump.

    Readers may not be aware, but Franklin Avenue and the surrounding area have already reached the level that they are no longer within the the reach of new, start-up businesses.

    Most of the businesses that have opened up over the last 2 years have other locations, and substansial capital to invest in renovating the spaces.

    As this process continues, franchises are the next step. As with prior phases of the process, it will not be within the control of individuals.

    The change will be governed primarily by market forces, and restricted "only" by things like the zoning code ...not things like whether individuals or groups want them.


  • The laws of hipster cool dictate that once a place gets a Starbucks it has officially sold out. Of course no hipster will recognize the laws of hipster cool since there are no hipsters.

    In all seriousness Franklin getting a Starbucks would royally suck. But whynot is yet again correct it's up to market forces not us.

    P.S. I am not a hipster.


  • Hey Newguy, im not a starbucks supporter at all but why would it royally suck?

    I feel like the Starbucks franchise to some is the equivalent to the new, hip bars and restaurants along Franklin to people who've been here a long time. Change is constant.


  • I'd like to dismiss the concept of "selling out", because it seems to imply that there was a common ethos that the neighborhood used to have, but now doesn't.

    For example, we didn't all not want "upscale" franchises like Starbucks in the past. We don't all want them now, and we won't all want them in the future.

    This is simply a question of whether enough people with the means and desire to purchase their products are perceived to now live (and pass through) this area, and/or whether enough such people will live in this area in the near future.

    Upscale franchises are concluding the answer is "Yes". As a result, the franchises will soon arrive.

    As a result of reaching a different conclusion in the past, such businesses were not here.


  • Whynot, what are the businesses that have openend recently that have had owners of other similar locations?


  • Excelsior, the bike shop owns a bike shop on smith street, Crown Heights Animal

    Hospital is partnered with the Prospect Heights Animal

    Hospital, the owners of Franklin Park own Crown Heights Inn but also Soda Bar and before that Southpaw, is Mayfield owned by one of the Stone Pony owners? Etc etc


  • Yes starbucks would be the Kiss of death.


  • I did some research. It's hard to get a Starbucks franchise. It takes more than money, and I doubt they'd bother trying to do it here. Starbucks wants to be where there is a lot of foot traffic and turnover (i.e. transit hubs, heavy retail and business districts) not where there is an area already saturated with coffee shops and where people are more likely to want to linger with their laptop rather than stand in line for coffee to go.


  • I am not aware of a relationship between Cool Pony and Mayfield.

    But, just about EVERY bar and restaurant that has opened (or is presently in the process of opening) is owned by an owner/LLC that has other locations, and several investors.

    Lots of money, skill and tolerance for risk is required to create the places we now eat and drink.

    Franchises are the next step. Many of the small mom and pops won't be able to compete but, they won't be the kiss of death unless you describe places that have them as being dead.

    Needless to say, a lot of people new to an area (or here for the day) prefer franchises because they offer a homogenous, known product.


  • Cent'Anni, Mayfield, Docklands, new coffee shops on St Johns and Park Place, Catfish, Cafe Rue Dix, Pretzle place, Island CZ, Cool Pony all seem to be the only store owned by the proprietors. What am I missing here?


  • We seem to be having confusion regarding how I am using the terms "substantial investment", "start-up", and "experienced", likely because I am being far from clear.

    The terms are very relative, and I have not bothered to try and quantify them.

    That said...

    Several of the venues you list are far from my definition of "mom and pop", and have active investors behind-the-scenes who have stakes in other establishments.

    Likewise, the visible owners/principals are quite seasoned.

    Basically, I am arguing that Franklin between EP and Atlantic is no longer a venue where small, inexperienced, cash poor proprietors can open up shop. When they do, they don't stand much of a chance in the face of the pros.

    My advise to non-pros is to learn their trade elsewhere first, or get really good, highly involved investors.

    ....because if they think it is tough at the moment, it is about to get a lot tougher as the next wave of even more experienced proprietors and the franchises arrive.


  • Whynot, I meant Stone Park Cafe, not Stone Pony which I made up. I looked it up and one of the Mayfield owners was a chef there, not an owner I believe. Anyway.


  • Needless to say, many of the building owners encourage this trend by requiring substantial deposits, and lengthy leases.

    The processes one needs to endure to get an alcohol permit and DOH approval also present substantial barriers to entry, but those are not new in the same way that the market conditions are.

    Note: I am only talking about the upscale franchises arriving, not dominating.


  • vaportrail said:

    Cent'Anni, Mayfield, Docklands, new coffee shops on St Johns and Park Place, Catfish, Cafe Rue Dix, Pretzle place, Island CZ, Cool Pony all seem to be the only store owned by the proprietors. What am I missing here?


    Luna Bagels (St John's & Nostrand) have another shop in Williamsburg. Island CZ owner has another restaurant in Flatbush. I think both Mayfield's and Catfish are owned by people that were long-time restaurant employees. There is definitely a relationship between experienced ownership and those opening up in the neighborhood.


  • Details homeowner details. Lula (not Luna) Bagel (no s) is on Lincoln Place. Also you should notice it was not on my list.

    Catfish was started by first timer owners. http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2013/01/catfish-bar-and-restaurant-opens-on.html?m=1

    The same for Mayfield. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/dining/reviews/hungry-city-mayfield-in-crown-heights-brooklyn.html

    They may have had in editors which enabled them to design the space and spend money as well as had the necessary working capital to survive the beginning.

    But I think the main point of whynot's bump is spurious. These two restaurants and Gladys (food trucks don't count IMO) show that mom and pops still have plenty of opportunity here. Granted to whynots point they must be well financed and experienced in the industry, but not necessarily owners.

    I think this distinction is important because seeing this means it is not eminent that franchises will crowd out opportunities for ambitious people with no ownership experience.


  • October 12, 2013

    I think it would be disingenuous of me to not disclose that I am aware a major franchise is coming, but have been sworn to secrecy re: the name of said franchise.

    Carry on.


  • The question is, when can you break the news?


  • or... trade area of said franchise? There's a big difference between TD Bank, Applebees, and Starbucks....


  • We would kill for a DR or a Walgreen's at EP and Franklin.


  • I do not fulfill wishes. I only know of things before others.


  • " I do not fulfill wishes. I only know of things before others."

    Spooky, do you also see dead people?


  • I saw some here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition

    But we may be getting off topic.


  • Hmm. Understood whynot. But I would like to point out that the presence of franchises does not preclude small operators opening up innovative retail or restaurants. We had Wamu/Chase and Dunkin Dounuts (EP & Nostrand) before individuals began innovating with restaurants and retail in Northern Crown Heights.

    Whynot, can you offer any clues? Is it food? Which Avenue is it on/near?


  • whynot_31 said:

    I think it would be disingenuous of me to not disclose that I am aware a major franchise is coming, but have been sworn to secrecy re: the name of said franchise.

    Carry on.


    Secrets don't make friends.


  • vaportrail said:

    Details homeowner details. Lula (not Luna) Bagel (no s) is on Lincoln Place. Also you should notice it was not on my list.

    Catfish was started by first timer owners. http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2013/01/catfish-bar-and-restaurant-opens-on.html?m=1

    The same for Mayfield. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/dining/reviews/hungry-city-mayfield-in-crown-heights-brooklyn.html

    They may have had in editors which enabled them to design the space and spend money as well as had the necessary working capital to survive the beginning.

    But I think the main point of whynot's bump is spurious. These two restaurants and Gladys (food trucks don't count IMO) show that mom and pops still have plenty of opportunity here. Granted to whynots point they must be well financed and experienced in the industry, but not necessarily owners.

    I think this distinction is important because seeing this means it is not eminent that franchises will crowd out opportunities for ambitious people with no ownership experience.


    I got details. I didn't say they previously owned restaurants rather that both Catfish and Mayfields were started by long time restaurant EMPLOYEES (ie. people with a strong background in the industry). When I referenced experienced ownership it was experience in the industry, which all of these owners have, vs. people coming to the restaurant industry without having a lot of experience in hospitality/food service.


  • That is getting to my long-winded point:

    Opening up in Western CH has become so expensive (and therefore risky) that newbies aren't attempting it.

    I'm arguing that such decisions are wise, because I see the competition only growing.


  • Epiclylaterd said:

    The question is, when can you break the news?



    October 16

    I have been given permission to reveal the news, but not the source:

    After being outbid over a year ago for the space presently occupied by Centanii, Starbucks is now in "final negotiations" with the landlord who owns the space formerly occupied by Climax: 775 Franklin Avenue.

    The rumor that started this thread was correct, but I was sworn to secrecy for over a year.



  • Oh man, this is gonna open up some good debate.

    I see the people who visit Starbucks and the people who visit establishments like Little Zelda's/Breuklen Coffee to be of different breeds. So I feel like those that support those places aren't headed to the Starbucks band wagon and their business will continue. Am I wrong? Do these shops have something to fear?

    Also, HOW MUCH COFFEE DOES ONE AVENUE NEED.


  • Also centanni outbid Starbucks? WOW!


  • I predict that not all of the existing coffee places are going to survive in their present form; they are going to have to adapt to survive in some other form.


  • Epiclayterd, I'll say it plainly anyone who drinks Starbucks coffee is a lazy corporate tool who likes paying out the nose for a sub par product.


  • I'm sick at just the thought of Starbucks on Franklin! and completely agree with Fonzie on this matter. oh I mean NewGuy88.


  • Wow. Starbucks for me is a last option if there are no alternatives around including bodegas. Not only does their coffe taste over roasted, but they seem to sell a lot of drinks with whip cream on them. These have never appealed to me as I have no interest in dessert disguised as coffee.

    I probably will never step foot in here even though I'm a regular customer of both Bruekelen and Zelda, Lula Bagel, and bodegas in between.


  • As a non-coffee drinker, I won't get much use out of the new Starbucks either.

    However, I suspect that a lot of the existing coffee shops were built under the premise that they would loose money for a while and then profit as "non-resident foot traffic" continued to increase in the neighborhood.

    My sense is that people visiting a neighborhood will stick to the familiar (I.E. Starbucks), but that residents will patronize their favorite local places.

    Starbucks will likely do fine on "just" the former group.

    The question is, "Will the small places do fine with just the business from the residents?"


  • No starbucks is terrible! What next? Olive Garden? Another Appleby's. So that those non-native visitors dont have to actually sample something they dont know? God Forbid they try something new or actually different! Move in the giant chain Drugstores.

    I mean its all better than that tobacco/head shop near Barbancino's. What a god awful step backward that is. Was there any dicusssion about that mess? did I miss it? I'm all for venting and spewing... It all starts to remind me of St. marks place in the east village. That was kinda of groovey for awhile (I'm older) and now its just the pits. Do they have a strbucks there too? It would seem appropriate. Oh yeah right its the gateway coffe place at astor place. Dont we deserve a few years of quaintness and inventiveness??? God I was just in Hullabaloo tonite and thought to myself " How great" and now this. We are all going to Die!!


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