SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

This will be disjointed:

1. I don't believe that the world is only 5,000 years old, etc. The words on the pages of the bible do NOT need to be taken 100% literally. Sure, some think that. But again, I know NO Christians who think that. None. Because they take it as "people a long time ago who wrote this were writing a story where things like that weren't important and/or they didn't know as much science as us so they just said something like a metaphorical "time" "

2. Also, schools may be a great place (at times) to expand academic discourse, etc. but I'm talking about humanity. Most schools don't do much to help those who aren't paying their tuition.

3. Thank you, MHA, for telling me the food wasn't from the church. I am surprised. Seriously. But, I worked the cotton-candy machine and some church members came over to check how I was (it was hot!) and brought me water, etc. while I was working. But I guess in the same vein -- I didn't pay for the sugar, the rental of the machine, the cones, etc. But I was there donating my time to hand out and make the cotton candy. Even if I didn't do everything involved there, it was something to help the community- same as that church.

4. Sorry to hear about the stomach sickness. It seriously is one of the worst feelings in the world. Only time I've felt worse was when I got a really really high fever. I honestly felt like I had become part of the bed and could not move at all. It was horrible. I hope you're feeling better.

5. Finally, I guess there is just a huge range of Christians. And not all will agree with others. I believe in life elsewhere as a possibility, etc. and don't see how it conflicts with the religion. I honestly don't. I can see how someone who believes in a 100% literal translation would have to make a choice - but I think FOR ME that a 100% literal translation doesn't make sense. At all - specifically in the old testament which I see as more of aesop-type fables and health/social norms being taught than a history lesson.

If man had no pride he would still be merely subsisting in the briny waters from whence he came.

So do you believe that if there is no high being, we have no purpose?

.... If so, I fail to see your logic and thus disagree.

If this is your logic, it seems we must be endowed with a purpose in order to have one.

This would mean that we can not find it, or create it via our own actions and motivations.

...that it is preordained, and we have no role in our individual fates or that of humanity and the earth at large.

I reject such "logic".

....I (and other atheists) choose to live the best way we can.

I do not believe that you are who you are as a result of believing in god. Yet, you continue to assert that any purpose I create (or find) for my life is to be assigned to a god.

Must I assign the accomplishments of religious people to the god they believe in?

....How am I prideful when I refuse to assign the "glory" to a being that I do not believe exists?

How could it be that I have no role in getting up each morning, and playing a role in my life and its purpose?

This makes no sense to me. Please explain.

Why is it so important to you that others share your path to finding a purpose?

What harm comes to you (or anyone) from me living my life as if their is no god?

Is that what he said? Did you hear him say that? How do you know he said that? What proof do you have that he said that? Where did he say that? When did he say that? How did he say that?

No idea what 'lulz' means..

Yes, I was responding to Mr. Met and Cap'n Planet. CP hasn't dissuaded me of the opinion that implicit in the faith of the christian is an arrogance, and a belief that they are 'better than' those who don't have their faith. There is an imperious nature to all 'true believers'; and as a descendant of people whose destiny was shaped by the arrogance and imperial nature of faith, I scoff at any hint of it I perceive in others.

And to the point that there is a god, I could care less. What is thrilling to me about the great classical protagonist Odysseus is that he does battle with the vain gods; similarly, the bible reveals the vain nature of the lord and his 'judgment'.

Thus, to Captain Planet and his/her god I say, 'judge and be judged.'

As long as CP's god's currency is 'worship' and all of what that entails, leave me out of the equation. It's just another passive-aggressive relationship I can do without. God knows there are enough of those to go around.

Looked up 'lulz'; not very nice.

Gothamist: Thundersnow

It is not the first time, though. lol. (colbert is a funny guy) I will say this though: what would knowing God 1) is real and 2) is angry, do? There is a story an evangelist told about a rather bulky man who came to sit in on a sermon he preached. Evangelist thought he was about to be bodyslammed. lol. but the guy was seeking Jesus. He said he was vehemently cursing God in his truck a few days prior and challenged God to prove he was real (cant remember why). Next thing he knew his truck was flipped over in a ditch. When he woke up alive, he was praising God and crying. That sounds extreme, but IT HAPPENED. I can't take away from things THAT HAPPEN. Doesn't prove anything to me but it does make me wonder. As much of a skeptic and pessimist that I am, if you knew me you'd know why me being a Christian is RADICAL. ntfool asked me and I gave him an answer. I was reading a gospel tract one day at my desk, saw my need for Jesus (as I laid out before), repented and got saved crying in a bathroom stall. That's remarkably strange. VERY VERY STRANGE. IT HAPPENED. why me? i dont know. but it explains why i take it so serious. And I'm glad most of you respect that. And I cant say this doesnt inform why I practice any sort of morality. I had practiced all sorts of immorality and selfishness that definitely didnt add to my community.

I agree that militancy (as described in this article) is arrogance, but add that this is the case whether it be practiced by religious OR atheists.

...which, of course, just leads most of us to state that we are not "militant" and do not claim "superiority" over everyone else. It is a handy way of saying "some are, but not me".

Right, it is never "us", it always "them".

And in that light, it is hard to deny that the loudest leaders and proponents on each side are quite arrogant.

Everyone seems to agree that humans (both historically and presently) use the concept of a god to help them understand the universe. As a result, I would never go so far as to say such beliefs are unhealthy, or a psychiatric disorder. ....to do so would inherently label the believing as somehow inferior.

In return, I ask that those who do believe in a god, to not label me as having some kind of a moral disorder, or of being somehow incomplete or inferior in relation to them.

Likewise, I do not dispute that many people are more moral as a result of having "found" a belief in god and/or religion. For example, I do not dispute that HCH's faith has lead him to turn his life around.

However, I do not believe that a belief in god or religion would necessarily make me a better person. If you (HCH or Capt) can not accept this, please explain how you are not judging me as inferior to you.

So noted, and my question is now solely directed to Capt.

He's been pretty quiet since he was directly asked whether one need to have a god in order to have a purpose.

Capt, you ok?

HCH-

I think the writer of the article could be from either side. Each side gets annoyed with the militants who try to claim to be the "true spokespeople" for the cause.

i.e. Christians who claim that christianity is the only way to live a moral life ....thus offending other religions, the atheists and the agnositics.

i.e. Other religious who claim that their way is the only way to live a moral life ....thus offending other religions, the atheists and the agnositics.

@why_not: Again, I dont think Christianity is the only way to live a MORAL, note: MORAL, life.

@MHA

two things:

notice: READ the article. notice how they relegate SOME atheists who are determined to mock and not at least investigate.

And you keep on making this statement:

What can be more arrogant than, 'Love me or else burn in Hell?'

its inclusive and exclusive. You keep saying arrogant. I'm trying to figure out what your definition of arrogant is. its very odd when a child is raped we think it is just that the offender be punished but somehow we are exempt ourselves for what we do and have done. Cant I rob a bank and say I dont believe in the legal system? In this country, should they arrest me? Cuz as broke as I am, I'd like to try. lol. If you think you are a perfect being, then I would have nothing to say. Right? Am I right? Otherwise, then, yeah, it is arrogant to say I know a perfect being. And to say that being created you and created you with some knowledge of him. After thousands of years, people still believe. Why?

Thank god we live in a free country where I can think all religion is crap, and you can believe the opposite and think atheists and agnostics will burn in hell.

True. So why continue to make inaccurate statements about Christianity? Im asking you to do what the woman has done at least. As I have done the same. You assume cuz I havent read a certain book, I dont know much about athesim right? I say fair, I will read those books, and investigate more. I did more than four years of investigation. and MORE (when I was younger as well, through KRS-ONE, etc.) and I am still investigating. Ive been listening reading staying engaged in this convo. Not yelling out "Atheism is horrible! Yall are stupid! Yall going to hell! You see atheism believes some arrogant stuff". I didnt start that. All i am doing and have been is expounding on some more (hopefully) more accurate Christian thought about what you and others speak about. In that I am able to share my personal life because I cant detach that.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16 (King James Version)

So, if you DON'T 'believieth in him...' it follows that you ought to perish and will have a finite life...

How far is that from my earlier surmise of, "Love me or else burn in Hell?"

There is nothing inaccurate there, HCH. Despite your proclamations of ostensible indifference about differing faiths, your own faith holds no such tolerance for those who do not follow its tenets, nor adore its god.

In fact, you cannot call yourself a Christian and view other faiths as EQUAL to your purported own. It's just NOT allowed; and that's cool. But don't act like such ain't the case goddammit, claim your position!

So when I state Christianity is inherently arrogant, this is what I mean. Your god is a jealous god. He said so himself. You might feign indifference to your Muslim buddies praying to the east five times a day, or your Buddhist friends 'Omm-ing', or your Wiccan friends whirling and howling under a full moon, but your faith is what it is...

It's an arrogant faith whose hold on its constituents is based on the fear of spiritual reprisal and the threat of everlasting torment in the afterlife...