SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

Hey, how come no one has brought up Pascal's Wager yet?

...we are slacking!

Here's a good read on the topic:

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2011/02/why-pascals-wager-sucks.html

My challenge for the day is merely to find contradictions in the bible?

...an easy day indeed.

Let's see, it seems to say that everyone one should be equal and we should treat others as we wish to be treated ...yet also says women are pretty much garbage.

Here's a discussion re: women in the bible that seems to be started by someone who has opened the bible and bothered to cite it:

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3006

Ditto, we seem to have more than a few endorsements of slavery being god's wishes.

....just some quick examples of how claiming to be free from errors and contradictions seems beyond the bible's reach, or -for that matter- any historical text.

HCH, do you really believe that in order to be a good christian you must defend everything in the bible? (this is not a standard I am trying to impose on you)

On a similar note, why do you dismiss a discussion of Pascal's wager?

While you may have been given the gift of unquestioning faith you profess, do you really find it hard to believe that many of people participating in religion do so largely as a result of such a wager?

....among my friends and family who believe, they all admit that they have trouble with the central tenets of their religions, yet practice it for the sense of community it provides, as well as a version of Pascal's wager.

This doesn't make them bad people, or bad christians in my view. Does it make them bad christians in yours?

Are you stating that the members of your congregation are different than the christians (jews, muslims, etc) that I know and love?

How many cafeteria christians are able to say "well that's what the bible said, but that isn't what it meant. So I don't follow that"

Are they still christian even though they interpret the bible's teachings to match their own preferences?

Are they still muslim if they pick and choose what they follow from the koran?

etc

I think I speak for many when I point out that the Fox interview on "What is the True Word of Jesus" would have been far more convincing had they interviewed Jesus, as opposed to some christian theologian 2000 years after Jesus spoke.

...but I might be wrong.

HCH, do you really believe that in order to be a good christian you must defend everything in the bible? (this is not a standard I am trying to impose on you)

1. I can never be a "good christian". I am a Christian because I've been enraptured in the love of Christ. Whether you've been saved 2 seconds or 18 years, you're never more good or bad of a Christian.

2. 1 Peter 3:15

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

Highlight: yet with gentleness and reverence. That's my aim here. That's why I haven't responded in two weeks. Cuz I want to be like "you guys have go to be jokin me. this is stupid." But no, I need to be humbled. I need Jesus as much as I speak to you about him. And as soon as you feel superChristian in your skin, that's when God knocks you right back down. I know. I wyled out cutting off mad ears. smh.

On a similar note, why do you dismiss a discussion of Pascal's wager?

Because the Bible and God is worth more than a theory or an exercise in "What if?" So much more. And it's so much more trustworthy.

While you may have been given the gift of unquestioning faith you profess, do you really find it hard to believe that many of people participating in religion do so largely as a result of such a wager?

Some may. But I know of none. in Christianity that is. cuz on the real, I see every reason to just go crazy if it was based on a 50/50 and a lot of people feel the same. But from life experience to Jesus' resurrection, its 99:1 lol.

....among my friends and family who believe, they all admit that they have trouble with the central tenets of their religions, yet practice it for the sense of community it provides, as well as a version of Pascal's wager.

This doesn't make them bad people, or bad christians in my view. Does it make them bad christians in yours?

Nope. But I'd question 1) did u really mean that, or was that your in the pressure moment answer to your nonbelieving friend or cousin? 2) If you believe that, then go sin like you don't know God. Like you dont think he exists. They will probably say "You crazy, heck no." And then I'd ask why? Because they know it's deeper than a social club or Pascal's wager.

Are you stating that the members of your congregation are different than the christians (jews, muslims, etc) that I know and love?

Did I state that? Infer that? If I did I shouldnt have. I only say that all christians aren't Christians, all jews aren't all jews, all muslims arent muslims too. So what's the difference? The Bible states that those who are Christians trust in Jesus alone for their salvation. Not their community, not Pascal's wager, not their good kindness. And I understand that doesn't seem tangible. But God is all wise. Because if it was totally tangible, we'd be fighting over who more holier than who. and that's my problem and Im pretty sure a lot of peoples problem with religion.

How many cafeteria christians are able to say "well that's what the bible said, but that isn't what it meant. So I don't follow that"

I wonder what a cafeteria christian is? and as far as part B. The Bible means what it says. It's the final authority. And we should discern and interpret it through a Gospel grace filled lens. Did Jesus mean I have to eat of his flesh and drink his blood in order to be his follower? The Gospel says Jesus sacrificed his body and shed his blood on the cross for my sins. What part of that is a demand to eat Jesus' body? So I need to interpret that through the Gospel. And I ain't tellin you what he's saying because I want you whynot to find that one day and discover what that means. But a good study of the Old Testament, which Jesus quoted a lot during his ministry, will reveal the meaning.

Are they still christian even though they interpret the bible's teachings to match their own preferences?

It's ok to have preferences in worship and dress and day to have church, but never have preferential interpretations on the Bible's teachings. It should be interpreted through Gospel grace filled lens. So I ain't a saved woman if I don't wear a hat to church? The Gospel says Jesus sacrificed his body and shed his blood on the cross for my sins. What part of that is a demand to wear a hat to be saved? You feel me now?

Are they still muslim if they pick and choose what they follow from the koran?

etc

Ask a muslim. I'm not an authority on islam, though I was big fan of Farrakhan during my college years and beyond; i remember walking into a mosque one day just to see if I wanted to do that.

I want to say this. God will prove himself without my help. I only seek to relate things to you because he is worthy to be known and loved and he wants to love. He created to love. That I know because I am who I am and Jesus is who he is. So its not so much about defending the bible, as it is showing how God is trustworthy and true. And its ok for me to do that I think. Because if you saw a dope movie, isn't ok for you to say "yo go see inception. the movie was this and this and this." and I can say "well so and so said it had this and this and I aint really into that" who has the final say on what it contains and its interpretation. not me, not you, not so and so. the movie, the director and the screenwriter. right? so what do i need to do. I can watch the movie, i can talk to the director and screenwriter. Whynot, read the Bible. and if you feel I said something wrong, thass dope, CUZ IM FALLEN TOO. ask me about it. but I pray Jesus reveals himself and enraptures you in his love

Looking forward to hearing about it!