why are the American poor refused to do jobs that are there?

Cool The Kid said:

Fucking site won't let me post/quote.

The purpose of health INSURANCE is NOT to "keep you healthy". The onus of your own health is on YOU. Health insurance exists solely to ease the financial burden of keeping yourself healthy.

That makes no f-cking sense.

I brush every day. Cavities happen.

I was born with depression. Nothing I can do. Need medication though.

I have high cholesterol. It's genetic. Need medication.

You're acting as if every health problem in this country is due to McDonald's or smoking.

Get real.

If someone is unhealthy, it is probably because their health insurance did not help them enough.

Frequently if someone is unhealthy, it is GENETIC, or CHANCE, or BAD LUCK.

Your libertarian mindset that everything is a consequence of choices people make is a fantasyland unlike anything I've heard of since I debated communism as a college freshman.

Cool The Kid said:

More quantum leaps.

Let's stick to assertions that people actually make- i.e., your assertion that it is the job of health insurance to keep people healthy. I haven't said or even implied any of the things you claim I did in this post.

Sucks when people do that huh?

Maybe you should look into your habit of saying things like:

BG you seem to place the responsibility for people's outcomes on institutions and outside forces. If someone is unhealthy, it is probably because their health insurance did not help them enough. If someone is poor, it is because society did not give them enough.

Cool The Kid said:But much of the spike in healthcare costs are due to the US' generally unhealthy lifestyle.

Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? Because health care costs have skyrocketed in the last 10-20, yet Americans were fat, lazy and smoking long before then, if I'm not mistaken.

Did something happen in 1980 that caused Americans to all of the sudden get unhealthy? I guess people were depressed about Reagan getting elected?

The "much of the spike in healthcare costs are due to the US' generally unhealthy lifestyle" is a falsehood you've tried to push before.

It's no more true now than it was then.

Sorry.

Cool The Kid said:

There are a lot of holes in your plot.

First of all, healthcare expenditures have risen in lockstep with obesity rates.

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

That's great. Do you have any actual evidence? correlation isn't causation, now is it?

Second of all, since 1980, our collective life expectancy has jumped by about 5 years (~6%),

Not only is life expectancy a misleading index of quality of health care, it's especially useless for analyzing cost.

The US spends more and gets less care per dollar of any developed nation.

It's a fact you simply have to wrap your mind around if you are going to continue to attempt to discuss health care costs.

You're CRAZY if you think these things have no effect on healthcare expenditures.

I never claimed that. What were you saying about quantum leaps? Where's that cute gif you had?

Likewise you're crazier if you think the one factor here we have full control over- our lifestyles- isn't the BIGGEST factor here.

You have no evidence of this whatsoever.

Someone who lives an unhealthy lifestyle will have higher healthcare costs than someone who doesn't. And the whole country is collectively & voluntarily less healthy than it was 30 years ago.

Quantum leap gif goes here too.

Do I think we should set an arbitrary limit, rather than reform our broken system and maximize health care dollars... reducing cost AND expanding benefits?

No.

Oh, hey, look at this:

http://brooklynian.com/forum/brooklyn-politics/they-said-it-couldnt-be-done-obama-might-get-single-payer

Boygabriel said:

That's great. Do you have any actual evidence? correlation isn't causation, now is it?

This was a response to your assertion that healthcare expenditures spiked over the last 10 years. According to your graph, when multiplied by GDP, they haven't. Expenditures actually decreased from 2008-2009.

Boygabriel said:

Not only is life expectancy a misleading index of quality of health care, it's especially useless for analyzing cost.

Life expectancy is relevant in the context of the new medical procedures that have been created over the last 30 years.

Boygabriel said:The US spends more and gets less care per dollar of any developed nation.

It's a fact you simply have to wrap your mind around if you are going to continue to attempt to discuss health care costs.

I never denied this. Nor does it really mean much, nothing I said denies this.

One, the US has the highest quality healthcare in the world. No Americans are leaving the country to get better healthcare.

Two, the US is easily among the least healthy countries in the western world... which would amount to more healthcare spending per person.

As far as your proof...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11913328

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGAQFjAG&url=http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=18&objID=446267&mode=2&ei=thThTvC9EorDtAbs1LyOCQ&usg=AFQjCNFcBL7vUwEaLXhJ-FjhcyPs9s2TPg

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/2011-01-12-obesity-costs-300-bilion_N.htm

Although logic would tell you that an unhealthy lifestyle would probably result in higher healthcare expenditures. And its pretty common knowledge that Americans collectively lead an unhealthier lifestyle than they used to.

Again it comes down to you hating the prospect of people accepting the consequences of the choices they make.

Cool The Kid said:

Again it comes down to you hating the prospect of people accepting the consequences of the choices they make.

Such a stupid f-cking thing to say.

I'm done.

It was really killing you two when you were agreeing with each other a few pages back, huh.

Is it really too hard to accept that the reason people get sick is a little of column A and a little column B? Some people make extremely unhealthy decisions, and some people deal with genetic predispositions, accidents, and other freak happenings?

Cool the kid, Are you one of those freakishly healthy people who never get sick and who manages to avoid accidents? My mother is one of those. It's very annoying. As an aside (because I have no interest in the level of debate you just enjoyed with BG) it's more than a wee bit insulting to say people need health insurance because of their choices. When, say, I slipped and fell at the base of the subway stairs and tore all my ankle ligaments, requiring surgery, it wasn't because of unhealthy choices. It feels a little like you like to think people get sick who in some way deserve it for poor choices. I find that offensive and lacking in empathy.

tateinbk said:

Cool the kid, Are you one of those freakishly healthy people who never get sick and who manages to avoid accidents? My mother is one of those. It's very annoying. As an aside (because I have no interest in the level of debate you just enjoyed with BG) it's more than a wee bit insulting to say people need health insurance because of their choices. When, say, I slipped and fell at the base of the subway stairs and tore all my ankle ligaments, requiring surgery, it wasn't because of unhealthy choices. It feels a little like you like to think people get sick who in some way deserve it for poor choices. I find that offensive and lacking in empathy.

If you're getting that from what I'm saying you're misinterpreting me. My little brother is asthmatic. I have a scar on my stomach because when I was born I wasn't breathing right and needed surgery. Yadda yadda. My dad for example has high blood pressure. But he's an alcoholic! And he is a doctor. So IMO, he should pay more for his health insurance. Not because he has high blood pressure, but because he makes lifestyle choices that exacerbate his condition. And a lot of Americans do. A bigger percent of Americans do today than before and it's reflected in our collective physical condition. I'm not that cold and I don't see why anyone would think so. But we have to be honest.

And I am accident prone to a fault. I was just in the emergency room earlier this year for a motorcycle accident. I have 3 fake teeth from a bike accident. I have all kinds of scars from my various slips and falls. But those are the choices I make, and the consequences I've had to bear for them. And through copays and lapses in insurance I have paid for them. It is what it is.

Everyone has to pay their way. We can't talk about reducing healthcare expenditures w/o talking about America's changes in health and lifestyle, even if it's unpleasant. I know BG would rather talk about profits and greed and all that, and that stuff is relevant. But it's not the whole picture.

Cool The Kid said:

(reform) is not the whole picture.

I believe you actually claimed that lifestyle choices are a majority of the health care cost picture. THAT is what I disagree with.

You're changing the topic from the three points I responded to, to talking about yourself.

You seem to believe the populace has an unlimited obligation to try to mitigate the effects of personal habits, genetics and bad luck.

You seem to believe that people are entitled to care no matter how expensive, simply because they want to continue to live.

This perspective is often summarized as "people have a right to unlimited health care".

What in god's name are you talking about?

Here is what I think:

A. Health care costs are only due in part to lifestyle choices (my opinion, and the opinion of many experts)

B. We have the most expensive, least efficient health care system in the developed world (objectively true)

C. We also have the most privatized one. (objectively true)

D. (B.) and (C.) are not a coincidence (my opinion, and the opinion of many experts)

I'm very curious where you got the quoted ideas from. You seem to be making stuff up.

Are you asking me what is likely to happen?

Nothing. We are f-cked. Obama is in the insurance industry's pocket. Half the country holds dumb ideas like single payer = socialism.

Asking me what I would do?

Use all my political capital to institute single payer, show people the results (at the doctor's and at their bank account), and gain support. I would have ridden Obama's election day momentum and come out like gang busters, focused almost entirely on HC reform.

If we want to deal with our debt and the plight of the 90% at the same time, the answer is health care reform.

If we want to take the easy way out, we can keep cutting benefits and put more and more people in poverty.

In this environment, I do not see any other choice besides cutting benefits.

Funny, b/c I made a post illustrating precisely how an alternate choice is possible.

But maybe it doesn't fit your narrative?

Immediately after making such statements, people are often accused of not caring about people in poverty, and being unaware of how much it sucks to be poor, yada, yada, yada.

When people fail to change their minds in response to such appeals and accusations, they are then accused of caring only about money.

...all of which makes people exhausted and annoyed, yet do nothing to balance the books. In the long term, the only entities that gain from a lack of budget cuts are the entities who own the debt.

as yes, these mythical "people" (critics?) you're so concerned with.

got any exact quotes? or are you just making sweeping non specific claims?

If all goes as I predict, (divisive presidential campaign, republican president, cuts to social welfare, continued economic stagnation, a few small riots) I think the austerity protests will really hit the US in the summer of 2013.

The weather will be hot. Relations between police and the unemployed will be at a low point....

CTK, being addicted to tobacco is not a simple matter of "choice" or self-control. Nor is obesity. Both involve physical and mental dependencies.

As both a former tobacco addict, and a formerly obese person, I can tell you that without access to medical care (prescription drugs in the case of tobacco addiction, and surgery to deal with the obesity), I could never have remedied either problem.

If you make that medical care prohibitively expensive, then there are going to be a lot more obese people and smokers, with all of the diabetes, cancer, heart attacks and strokes that that implies.

That becomes very expensive for society at large. It's bad policy.