Is the crime Race Related?

anonymous · August 2005

Hello Group...
As unpopular as it may sound, I think people are being attacked in the PH due to the simmering anger and resentment from longtime residents in the neighborhood--many of them unemployed, young, and poor. I've said this before on this board and was attacked for my views, but I'm sure this is the case.... You're being attacked because of your ethnicity and because some residents look at you as easy victims. I've been in PH for 10 years and have only felt unsafe a few times. In fact, I feel very safe on my block--St. Johns Between Underhill and Washington...so called "Crazy Lane." I don't buy into the "make friends with the crackhead and he'll look out for you mantra," but I do believe in saying hello to my neighbors and looking them in the eye. The guys on the block speak to me everyday, comment on my outfits, pet my dog, and ask to take rides in my car (which I respectfully decline.), and treat me respectfully at all times. They've jumped my car (the old one), offered to carry my packages, and are generally a pleasant group of guys...I don't think it would be this way if I were white. I've been gone away for a while, but when I returned, EVERYONE noticed that I had been away and several neighbors went out of their way to welcome me back on the block---a few even said they'd misse dme. it was surreal because the "dangerous" neighborhood in which many of us live in is in fact, a vibrant, breathing, albeit sketchy--- neighborhood. In my heart, I know that if I were white instead of black, people wouldn't be nice to me at all. In fact, I might be forced to endure some of the hostility that you guys have faced. In fact, I'm sure I've been embraced because at this point, I'm one of the few black young people who has moved INTO the neighborhood instead of OUT of it. I did just get an IPOD and because of it, I find myself looking over my shoulder from time to time---but I refuse to fall prey to fear...its just not worth it. I love my block and my neighbors... 8)

dailyheights · August 2005

Interesting thoughts, thanks. With regard to "saying hello to neighbors", I used to live in a city in the south where this was standard practice (in fact, you could just say "alright" which was kind of used as an "aloha" of sorts). I took it for granted that Prospect Heights was less friendly because, well, it's New York. But since the last time this issue came up here in the boards, I've started tentative "hellos" to people I don't know when it seems appropriate. It's interesting to see the reactions - some people seem a bit startled at first.

arielbl · August 2005

RBG,
I smile and nod at my neighbors, they smile and nod at me, and they would pet my dog if it was safe to (he's an easily freaked small dog). One regular on the block even noticed when I got a haircut and new glasses. And I'm pretty darn white.

Actually, the one time anyone said anything about my race, it was a kid, and a slightly-larger kid with him told him to shut up and apologized to me (I didn't actually catch what was said).

HOWEVER, this does not make me feel any safer. Having friendly relations with the neighbors is all well and good, but I honestly don't think its going to do much in the way of keeping me (or you) from getting mugged or my (or your) apartment broken into. I don't think there is much that can be done to prevent those things besides using common sense (ie, not walking home alone late at night, being alert and aware that no one is too close to me when I open the building door) and doing things to make the neighborhood as a whole safer (such as going to the precint meeting that was cancelled).

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iowagirl · August 2005

We moved to our block (Sterling between Vanderbilt and Underhill) six years ago, and I've never found it anything other than friendly. I look at everyone -- friends and strangers alike -- as I walk down the street and say "hey" or "hi" to almost everyone, and it's rare that I get a surprised look. I'm white, and the people who tend to avoid my gaze are also white. One of the things I love about PH, particularly after coming from Park Slope, is that strangers become neighbors fairly easily. It takes a little effort, but it happens.

As far as crime is concerned, I've lived in Forest Hills and Sunset Park too. It takes common sense and luck to stay safe. Try not to walk alone at night, and when you do, walk against traffic in the street. I do believe that knowing your neighbors can help, though, especially when people are out in the evening. As naive as it sounds, if you know your neighbors, you can all watch out for each other. Perhaps all blocks aren't like this one, but I think most of them are just the same.

cyn707 · August 2005

as a kid visiting my grandma and cousins in their brooklyn neighborhood (marine park) i learned that neighbors always say hi to one another. when i moved to brooklyn from manhattan, i tried the same, but found that my neighbors don't acknowledge me. i was ready to say hello, but couldn't get eye contact with anyone. surprisingly, even the firemen don't say hi when i pass the fire house. i was immediately struck by this when i moved here.

emily · August 2005

As before, I think you have a good point and a muddled one. You're right, as you were before, that people should be friendly.

But if you are saying that there are people in the neighborhood who are determined to dislike white people because they are white, then I don't really see what you're getting at. You seem proud of the fact that you get on well with your black neighbors, but then you seem to attribute this to the simple fact that you are not white more than to your own actions. Well, skin color is not something that we white people are going to be able to change about ourselves, so why are you going on about it? To be frank, it's kind of insulting that you pride yourself on attaining friendly relations with people whom you believe would hassle people of another race. I go out of my way to avoid people like that no matter how respectfully they treat me personally.

I don't mean to inflame discussion, but your posts always appear to offer advice, but mostly contain self-congratulation.

jamesondean · August 2005

Subject: And throwing bricks through windows won't stop new building.

For the most part, I think crime is a matter of opportunity, and discriminates against the oblivious. That having been said, if actual hate crimes occur here, press charges. It's serious and the city is on edge about such crime already. Saying something about somebody's race during the commission of a crime is about the dumbest thing you can do these days. Three extra years in jail minimum just for using the wrong word. Very not bright.

captain m · August 2005

Subject: Re: Is the crime Race Related?

I'm not sure I get your point, I thought your post was kind of rude and wasnt saying anything we didnt already know. But its ok for you, becasue you're black? Did you think that white people think the people doing the mugging were employed, older and rich? I grew up in brooklyn, I see easy "targets" all the time and they are white, its ok to mug them becasue they have it coming?

This is a great neighborhood, it is made dangerous by a few members of a greater population that also hosts wonderful caring people.

I'm not sure what your point is bragging about how "down" you are and it's probably becasue you are black.

arielbl · August 2005

It is common sense to be friendly and hope your neighbors will look out for you (as well as the nice thing to do).

At the same time, an (antisocial) part of me says you know what? If I want to keep to myself, that should be FINE. If I don't want to smile and chat, that should be FINE. The grouchy, the busy, and the socially anxious should not be penalized. I feel that by putting such an emphasis on having friendly relations with out neighbors and not having been mugged it blames those that HAVE been assaulted (see previous threads where daveB discusses being assaulted) or implies that if they just had better relationships with their neighbors, it wouldn't happen.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone (or not trying to) - I just get very frustrated by this.

anonymous · August 2005

Hello Again:

Why do some people on this list get so offended when someone says something that you don't agree with? In the interest of dialogue, I asked a very simple (and valid) question: What issue does race play in the role of victimization and crime in PH? I never said it was okay for people (black or white) to be mugged/ridiculed etc. for any reason--race included. Nor did I say I was immune to this. I was simply offering another opinion. Obviously, we've all had different experiences and I was simply sharing mine. And for the record, I don't spend much time on the street chit-chatting and yes, there have been times when I've said hello to people and they've completely ignored me---black and white people. I say hello when I'm walking my dog and keep it moving...Of course, being nice to people isn't going to keep any of us from being accosted, but certainly ignoring your neighbors is simply adding insult to injury...Denying that race has anything to do with this is simply ignoring a relevant and important part of this conversation.

iowagirl · August 2005

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I stop and chat with everyone I see, merely that I acknowledge those with whom I share the sidewalk. Nice? Common sense? I don't know, but it makes sense to me to try to connect with people, especially those who you see in your neighborhood on a regular basis. Doesn't mean you have to be happy and shiny all the time (God knows I'm not), but at least recognize each other.

Perhaps Prospect Heights is more different block to block than I realized. Pardon my Iowish-ness (although you'd think that after 25 years, it might have disappeared by now).

emily · August 2005

I think what you said, and what you think you said, are somewhat different.

jack · August 2005

While the gentrification in Prospect Heights is on a larger scale than Brighton Beach (where I grew up), I can honestly say it really is not race related.

Brighton Beach in the 1970s/1980s was mixed lower-class/working-class neighborhood. My friends were from all over the spectrum of races. But when Russians started moving in, the backlash began. Ditto with landlords who were selling their buildings (including mine) to overseas investors. Tensions existed with the bizarre fights that would often erupt between older NYC Jewish men and the newer Jewish Russians; all technically had the same background but the 'old' hated the 'new'. And absentee landlords made it worse. When I was a kid, the landlord was someone we knew. Now he/she/it was a management company.

Superficially, one can say that there are race issues indeed. The redlining that created the divisions one sees nowadays is definitely rooted in race. But scratch a little deeper and you'll see that it's simply people not angered at race, but angered at cost of living and the 'new' people changing things.

I don't think anyone objects to a neighborhood getting nicer/cleaner. But when that nicer/cleaner is something that you pay more for each month in rent, then that's another issue all together.

arielbl · August 2005

RBG wrote: Hello Again:
...
Of course, being nice to people isn't going to keep any of us from being accosted, but certainly ignoring your neighbors is simply adding insult to injury....

What injury?

captain m · August 2005

RBG wrote: Hello Again:

Why do some people on this list get so offended when someone says something that you don't agree with? In the interest of dialogue, I asked a very simple (and valid) question: What issue does race play in the role of victimization and crime in PH? I never said it was okay for people (black or white) to be mugged/ridiculed etc. for any reason--race included. Nor did I say I was immune to this. I was simply offering another opinion. Obviously, we've all had different experiences and I was simply sharing mine. And for the record, I don't spend much time on the street chit-chatting and yes, there have been times when I've said hello to people and they've completely ignored me---black and white people. I say hello when I'm walking my dog and keep it moving...Of course, being nice to people isn't going to keep any of us from being accosted, but certainly ignoring your neighbors is simply adding insult to injury...Denying that race has anything to do with this is simply ignoring a relevant and important part of this conversation.

Your post is stupidly put, there happens to be a few black people that often mug white people, its a statistic that has more to do with money and gentrification than skin color. Nobody is saying you are wrong, you just use a point to let everyone know you are black and what you drive, but nobody gives a crap, which is different than disagreeing with you. You sound like a sorry excuse for a neighbor.

ana.log · August 2005

RBG wrote: Hello Again:

Why do some people on this list get so offended when someone says something that you don't agree with? In the interest of dialogue, I asked a very simple (and valid) question: What issue does race play in the role of victimization and crime in PH? I never said it was okay for people (black or white) to be mugged/ridiculed etc. for any reason--race included. Nor did I say I was immune to this. I was simply offering another opinion. Obviously, we've all had different experiences and I was simply sharing mine. And for the record, I don't spend much time on the street chit-chatting and yes, there have been times when I've said hello to people and they've completely ignored me---black and white people. I say hello when I'm walking my dog and keep it moving...Of course, being nice to people isn't going to keep any of us from being accosted, but certainly ignoring your neighbors is simply adding insult to injury...Denying that race has anything to do with this is simply ignoring a relevant and important part of this conversation.

I can't find any posts here that read as 'offended' -- your post was obviously intended to start a discussion and it did. It's funny that you state that no one wants to hear anything they disagree with, and yet you're the most defensive of anyone when we disagree with you! I do think you have valid points about the root of hostility in the neighborhood related to gentrification etc., although I have not experienced any hostility directed at me, personally. I do believe if any hositility towards whites by blacks exists in this neighborhood is a case of misdirected anger, and as a black woman in this neighborhood who, beneath the surface, seems to have a very real desire to see harmony, you might consider trying to the tides a bit by talking things out with your friends on the block who are nice to you but ready to jump on the next iPod carrying white guy walking past.

Finally, I have noticed that it's much easier to establish eye contact and get hellos back from blacks in my neighborhood moreso than whites. But remember that this might have more to do with where people grew up than the color of their skin. People don't sit out on the porches and wave at their neighbors in the suburbs anymore, whereas this is par for the course, and probably always has been, in Brooklyn.

escap · August 2005

RBG, I liked your post much more this time around. The last one seemed to say, "Racial violence is justified." This one is much less inflammatory.

However, I still think you're making a fundamental mistake. You may definitely be right about people of the same race and culture feeling more comfortable around each other. I have no doubt that many blacks would respond more warmly to other blacks than to whites, and that the same is true for whites, or asians, or any other group.

But why do you equate niceness vs coldness with the potential for crime? It's one thing to say those nice guys on the street might not be so nice to some white hipster; it's an entirely different thing to suggest that they would physically attack a white person. If you are saying that, I think you're being pretty insulting to the black guys on your street.

The fact is, you have the highest chance of being victimized in this city if you are young, black and male. I have no doubt that there's racial tension in PH, but criminals are a small minority of any population, and they have their own agenda. You of all people should know better than to suggest that there's a violent thug lurking behind the smile of every black man. Care to rephrase?

sleighb76 · August 2005

RBG-
I too have neighbors and local kids who greet me everyday and treat me in such a way that I feel totally and completely comfortable and accepted. The kids who hang out on my stoop not only make small talk, but they also go one step further by inquiring about my cats (One ran away for the night a couple of months ago and another scared us with a bad case of indigestion). Even on the day I moved in, they offered to help me unpack the Uhaul. My building is primarily Black and Hispanic, and so are the kids who hang out here. But, I'm White?

It scares me that in in your heart you can't see beyond the color of your skin and the skin around you. As a public school teacher who not only lives in ProCro but also works in Crown Heights, I have to deal with the offspring (and their guardians) of a generation with similarly limited views. It's tragic.

However, I have noticed one thing. On my breaks I often walk up Albany Avenue from Atlantic to Crown. As soon as I set foot outside of the building I get greeted from every angle. From students, to workers, to winos and crackheads, they all say hi and make small talk. I enjoy it, I feel accepted. Ironically, I think I would feel less accepted if I were a rich Black girl with a nice car who moved back to my struggling neighborhood. I digress... The greetings usually start to slow down the closer I get to Empire, which happens to be where the area becomes mostly Hassidic (Hmmm).

This tells me two things: The Black and Hispanic population are more hospitable and open minded than some would like us to believe 2. Too many Hassidim are Reform Jew haters (this sucks too, but I'll reserve it for another thread)

Sorry for the long post

jack · August 2005

sleighb76 wrote: This tells me two things: The Black and Hispanic population are more hospitable and open minded than some would like us to believe 2. Too many Hassidim are Reform Jew haters (this sucks too, but I'll reserve it for another thread)

The Hasidic community is amazingly closed. Even when they think they are open when they are doing 'outreach', they are closed. They don't say hello to most anyone and have a deeper aversion to lapsed Jews an non-Hasidic 'members of the tribe' than you'd imagine. And it's not hate. It's just they way they act. I get similar behavior from the Islamic folks here on Atlantic Avenue. 'Closed communities' ain't just a catch-phrase.

In fact the only time I ever had a casual conversation with a Hasidic person of any ilk was at a Williamsburg Halloween party in 2000. I thought the guy was dressed up! He was 100% real, owned the building and was hanging out at the loft and would not stop talking about how Jackie Mason is the greatest Jewish comedian because he had a Hassidic background. Yowza! That sounds like a joke, but that's what happened.

Don't take it personally. It's just the way they are. Including the Jackie Mason stuff.

anonymous · August 2005

I've had many friends who ran the NYC Marathon and all have similar stories as the route runs on Bedford Avenue, into the heart of Hassidim Williamsburg: Porta-potties removed from the neighborhood so that the runners do not use them; The natives walking in the streets while the runners go by, bumping into the runners as if they don't exist. WTF, is that racism or what

dailyheights · August 2005

I would not call it "racism", but it was certainly bizarre... I ran a few years ago, and the ONLY, and I mean ONLY place along the way where there was not a crowd at least 1-deep was on Bedford Avenue. Not like I demand that people look at me when I run a stupid race, but... whereas all of New York came out to welcome us, I felt almost embarrassed intruding in their neighborhood, and they certainly paid us no mind at all.

The porta-potty story seems apocryphal to me... can that be confirmed? If so, it would be somethin'.

isa · August 2005

It's definitely an insular community but I don't equate that with racism.

t-fal · August 2005

RBG makes an excellent point. when people smile at you or say hello, reciprocate! you see these folks everyday! its actually pretty amazing how far a friendly smile can take you. the boys who hang in front of my stoop have always been kind and polite to me, and i treat them with identical respect and consideration. these types of social skills will take you far in life, not just in the neighborhood, but in the world at large. one great way of easing yourself (if you are normally a shy person) into being friendly, is to greet the shopkeepers as you walk by. you see them everyday, they want your business, so they have an incentive to be friendly to you (so you know they will say hello back) and this will also improve the level of service you receive at the shops

ana.log · August 2005

t-fal, i think a lot of us are saying we already do that.

regardless, not smiling is not a justification for being mugged. i seriously doubt that criminals are sitting around on their stoops saying, hey she/he didn't smile at us, let's mug her/him.

daveb · August 2005

ana.log wrote: i seriously doubt that criminals are sitting around on their stoops saying, hey she/he didn't smile at us, let's mug her/him.

I certainly do. In fact, I keep quite a list, huddled and mumbling in my Apartment of Doom. Let that be a warning. You all damn well better start smiling and saying hello to daveb or else when the revolution comes, you'll be the first against the wall! I'm MAD HOT! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

t-fal · August 2005

oh you're absolutely right analog. i didn't mean to imply that is was justification. but i have some friends who have lived here for as long as i have, who still don't say hi to even the business owners who greet them all the time. i mean its just not good karma. however, i think i might just live on a really good block, it might not look like much, but the cadre of stoop sitters and commercial traffic seem to keep the block monitored really well.

the constant traffic is actually one of the things that sold me on the block.

anonymous · August 2005

I have good relations with my neighbors (I'm pretty shy, but my husband is very friendly, so he helps break the ice) and I agree with those who have pointed out that it's actually much harder to get a hello out of the white people in this neighborhood as a general rule (with the exception of the people in my building, I don't think a single white person has EVER said hello or even smiled at me on the street.) As far as racial comments are concerned, I was called "milk of magnesia" once, but honestly that was just so funny I couldn't even get offended.

As for how that affects safety: I don't think that people are sitting around keeping lists of who doesn't smile at them and planning to mug them, but at the same time someone walking down the street who is clearly known by and friendly with people/chatting/saying hello/interacting with the world around them IS less likely to be attacked than someone shuffling along with their head down. I think it's not a matter of people deciding not to attack you because you're friendly so much as it is simply being less alone.

Being known in your community is certainly not a guarantee of safety, but I think it's not completely irrelevant, either.

carnivore · August 2005

Anonymous wrote: I don't think that people are sitting around keeping lists of who doesn't smile at them and planning to mug them, but at the same time someone walking down the street who is clearly known by and friendly with people/chatting/saying hello/interacting with the world around them IS less likely to be attacked than someone shuffling along with their head down. I think it's not a matter of people deciding not to attack you because you're friendly so much as it is simply being less alone.

Being known in your community is certainly not a guarantee of safety, but I think it's not completely irrelevant, either.

good point, guest.

ana.log · August 2005

Anonymous wrote:
Being known in your community is certainly not a guarantee of safety, but I think it's not completely irrelevant, either.

I didn't say it wasn't relevant: I said it wasn't a justification.

bluedove · August 2005

Aw, crap. Sorry, that "Guest" was me. Home sick, forgot my computer here wouldn't automatically sign me on.

ana.log, I know you said it wasn't a justification, which...of course it's not! I don't think anyone on here would really think that if you want to keep yourself to yourself you deserve to be knifed or anything. I'm just saying that while no, it's not a justification, it does have an effect.

t-fal · August 2005

milk of magnesia!?!?! WTF? :shock: your presence must have loosened them up some then?

god i used to get called snowflake, or snow white, or just snow...which always caused me to get that "informer!" song in my head. now its just the plain old unimaginitive whitegirl or blondie.

Is the crime Race Related?

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