Schools
Gothamist had an ask a native question about Crown Heights schools. 
This week's question comes from a Crown Heights gentrifier who wonders if it's wrong to ship his kid off to a private school.
Comments
-
I pretty much agree with the response, and found this article on how much we are spending in NYC per pupil to be interesting:New York City Public Schools: Have Per Pupil Budgets Changed Since 2010-2011? - New York City by the Numbers
-
not sure what upsets me more: pappy gentrifier with the "i feel i'm too rich and white to send my kids to the public school" or the anecdotal, short-sighted, overly self-righteous response.
-
You feel parents have an obligation to send their children to the local public schools?
-
Honestly, I do. Ask me the 5 things most damning to American students are they would be:1. Charter schools/vouchers2. Private schools3. Standardized testing4. Scripted curriculum5. Lack of community involvement in the school
-
What do you think of this guy's view? He seems to expand on #5
-
Parents and the community need to be involved. And I don't mean teachers calling them to let them know that their child did something wrong and so they need to come up for a meeting - I mean proactive, part of the process, partners in the learning environment.The SLT works in theory - but not in real life in most schools. PAs and PTAs are volunteer-based -- and generally full of those who speak English confidentially, who aren't scared of "the system", who have time to volunteer (aka not working multiple jobs or raising many kids)...etc...therefore many schools have tiny Parent groups or none at all. The Parent Coordinator position is a low-wage job that needs more resources, more money, and longer hours budgeted to it for it to be effective.School buildings should be places with doors wide open. A place where parents don't feel scared to enter, like they're being judged by others, and that they're there for more than the 2 parent teacher conferences each year.Doors open to parents during the school day - both to interact with kids and to do other things (publishing centers for kids' written work, reading with kids, etc ... As well as learning courses for adults (both purely academic like reading and more cultural like art classes or cooking courses). School buildings should be open late into the evenings with extracurriculars for kids, classes for entire families, adult education classes, dinners for families in the community... And open on weekends for events and classes as well.I have a beautiful classroom. And it is unused from 2:50pm until 8:30am M-F September-June, and unused all summer and weekends. That's space for all sorts of things.Once parents (especially in immigrant and lower-income neighborhoods) see schools as places their kids learn and places they can be a part of, everything else will fall more into place.
-
While we are waiting for that to happen, do individual parents have to forego what they perceive to be a better option?Why can't they simply enroll their kid in a school that they perceive as has having engaged, literate parents and teachers who are not burnt out?Isn't it reasonable for the above guy to realize that, despite his YouTube video, he isn't going to be able make enough of the parents in his kid's school follow his advice?
-
i remember reading this on gothamist, and i put plenty of my two cents over there.
not sure what upsets me more: pappy gentrifier with the “i feel i’m too rich and white to send my kids to the public school” or the anecdotal, short-sighted, overly self-righteous response.
i'm with jake dobkin (the columnist) on this one.i don't really have any sympathy for the letter writer. he really should have done his research on the local schools before buying in the area. -
Ask me the 5 things most damning to American students are they would be: 1. Charter schools/vouchers 2. Private schools 3. Standardized testing 4. Scripted curriculum 5. Lack of community involvement in the school
I agree with 3,4 and 5 and disagree with 1 and 2. There have been private schools in existance for over a hundred years in NYC. The idea that parents choosing to opt out of public schooling for religious, academic, or other reasons is killing the public schools doesn't comport with the fact that the number of private school seats in the city has not significantly increased in 30-40 years. Charter schools are more of a game changer, but there have always been schools in NYC that "creamed" kids (all of the public schools that required tests, auditions, or selection processes to get in). Those schools and programs don't have special ed representation that matches the remainder of the districts in which they are located or the city as a whole, and yet that's never been a problem. -
Yes, depending upon who you ask, those programs are certainly versions of elitism/meritocracy/classism/racism/etc.I suspect the schools and programs have never been focused on as a problem because most people have accepted that there is a need (or at least a demand by those with power) for them.Charter schools, on the other hand, threaten a group with power: The unionized public school establishment. As a result, we hear lots about how they entrench and foster elitism/meritocracy/classism/racism/etc, without even having to ask.
-
"Why can’t they simply enroll their kid in a school that they perceive as has having engaged, literate parents and teachers who are not burnt out?"My son went to PS 9 when it was not considered a "great" school but every single teacher he has come across has given him 110%. I have never met a teacher that did not offer their services outside of school to help a student out. As xlizx can attest to - all it take is the simple phrase to your child's teacher - "please let me know what I can do at home to carry over your lessons" Or I am off on such and such date can I help you with something? While having the majority of a school's parents involved is wonderful, it works when just you as a parent are involved.
-
I am not certain the guy in the above video believes that.I do not think that he believes he can overcome "other people's families".
-
I've always felt that private schools are a problem. Removing your child for reasons of religion or "they're too smart" is not a good reason. Your child needs to work with others who believe different things - and other kids should learn from your child and his/her beliefs. As for the gifted thing, I hate it. Unless your child is a legitimate genius chances are his/her highly qualified and motivated teachers can differentiate to your child's needs. And others can learn from your child as well ... While your child learns topics more indepthly as they help others understand them.All this to say - unless your child requires something the DOE literally cannot offer - even in a district 75 school - you are doing a disservice to our city's greater good and the students (including your child) of our city.
-
I think it is a question of what kinds of diversity your child will likely encounter, and thus need to be prepared to interact with.
-
I speak from a strictly elementary school perspective, but the segregation in NYC schools is terrible. The problem is, I don't know how to fix it. I do know, however, that getting rid of charters/privates/vouchers will help. Think about the Original Article here...if that wasn't a discussion and the person had to send their kid to the local school, that would allow for some diversity. Of course, it's rare to have true diversity in NYC. I'm thinking of a handful of schools in the village (especially east), some Williamsburg schools, and somewhat places like Sunset Park (although those latter two are still majority Hispanic).But how do we help this? How do we get real diversity (race, economics, learning abilities, parental involvement, etc...) in schools in places like East Flatbush or Brownsville? We can get the latter 2 diversities by getting rid of a tiered educational system and then work towards economical and racial diversity through other ways. What those practical ways are, I can't say.Very telling article below. No one wants to be "the drop of cream in the coffee" for whatever reason. But if the tale of two cities lessens and people send their kids to public schools, we may have a swirled drink soon enough. (This metaphor got away from me)http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/11/nyregion/segregation-in-new-york-city-public-schools.html?_r=1&;
-
I do not think we will be able to maintain a tax base (aka middle and upper class families) if we get rid of our multi-tiered educational system.I do not perceive people wanting to join with the poor in order to lift them up, as much as I see them wanting to have no association with the the poor.I see see this as stemming from a fear that their children will adapt the habits of the poor, or that others will lump their children into being only "as good as the poor" because they attended the same schools. These habits are often referred to as the Culture of Poverty, and the fear is that their child will be sucked into this culture if they associate with low income children.Similarly, there are parents who do not fear the "Culture of Poverty", but don't send their kids to public schools because they fear others will treat their children as if they have been "infected" by said culture without taking the time to see whether it is true.
-
But how do we help this? How do we get real diversity (race, economics, learning abilities, parental involvement, etc…) in schools in places like East Flatbush or Brownsville?
I would say busing, but that would prompt those who can afford it to pull even more kids from public school and send them to private school. Screw them.I encountered diversity in my high school. My high school had two special programs which were open to students city-wide in addition to being a zoned school. My elementary school (in District 17) was de facto segregated but that was because of the demographics of the neighborhood. My junior high school was not zoned (it was a gifted and talented school), but it was largely black and Latino because that happened to be the type of student body it attracted. That said, there were handful of white kids and Asian kids in my graduating class.I was supporting Jake Dobkin's answer because I know from personal experience that having your kid start out at the zoned public school in your (so-so) district doesn't have to doom your kid to an underachieving academic career. A number of my elementary school classmates went outside our home district to the above-mentioned gifted and talented school because we and our parents were less than impressed with the local junior high school. (That junior high school by the way, no longer exists.) We were the beneficiaries of parental involvement (the good old PTA!). Our parents found out about alternatives to the zoned junior school, had us pursue them, and had to get the variances to attend a school outside of our district.Of course, once a student gets to the high school level, there are more public school options available city-wide, including the three specialized science high schools. I suspect that the person who wrote the letter to Jake Dobkin at Gothamist would be the type of parent who would take an active role in his child's education and would work the NYC public school system in however way necessary to get the best education for his child...if he were to choose to enroll his kid in a public school. I got the impression that he just didn't want to try. -
I think there is a lot of truth to the belief that "when other options are limited, the zoned public schools are better because more people participate".However, we are now in a situation where there are lots of options. These options have been created because powerful, involved people reached the conclusion that they could not get their desires met in the traditional "one size fits all" public school.
-
I don't think the standard educational teaching methods are in any way wrong, but I also prefer alternate educational philosophies that are not possible with public. Telling people they could no longer choose, say, Montessori or Waldorf, would raise the rates of home-schoolers. If it were possible to find a similarly alternative education route that was public, regardless of what race children attended, I would be on that so fast. For me it's not so much public vs. private but alternative vs. standard. Even in places like Germany, where the public schools have better educational reputations than private they allow for private or semi-private schools of alternative education methods. All that said, I'm curious as well about the public school system but feel intimidated about how to learn more. Public school buildings in general feel very closed off. I really wish there were ways for the general public to interact more with our local public schools. If I didn't have my toddler I would be more able to do things like ask to volunteer, but even if that were the case I'm not sure I would be allowed. I think getting the whole community into public schools is the answer, even regardless of where people send their kids.
-
What I find interesting about these kinds of discussions is that in a community like Crown Heights where a signficiant portion of the white community is educated at local private yeshivas, I never hear gentrifiers of any stripe suggesting that those kids should be forced to attend their local public schools. Yet, there is this underlying theme that part of the problem with local public schools is caused by middle class blacks that have opted out of locals schools for charters, parochial and private schools. There is also this real blindness to privilege that says that the "meritocracy" of G&T somehow negates minority parents concerns about their kid being the only in a classroom, but that its an absolutely acceptable factor in a general classroom when the child is white. These clear contradictions make it hard for me to take any of this seriously. As a parent I would much rather determine what setting would be best for my child (class size, academic rigor, socioeconomic makeup) and pay money to achieve that setting, that send my child to a local public school that may not be a good fit or have the makeup I deisre in an effort to improve society at large.
-
Does anyone here send their kids to P.S. 138 or P.S. 22/705 or any of the charter schools in District 17 (our school district?) I'd love to hear about your experience.
-
The media and academics do seem to spend a lot of time and energy discussing how schools are segregated by race and class.As someone who attended a high school that was always reported as being highly integrated, I just smile. You see, even though the school had kids from a variety of backgrounds, the only time we were in the same room was for lunch.-The AP kids (wealthier and predominately white) had the classes that prepared them for competitive colleges.-The regular Ed kids (the white children of people BAs) had classes that prepared us for average state colleges-The Special Ed kids were mostly minorities from poor families, whose classes focused mostly on behavior management.-The ESL kids did something in the classrooms over by the auditorium, near where the you could buy weed from the Special Ed kids.The Middle class black and Hispanic kids didn't attend my public school. Their parents sent them to the local Catholic school, presumably because they didn't want them to be sucked into the "culture of poverty" that they themselves escaped.
-
I recently went on a tour of PS 705. It seems like the school has a lot of good energy from the parents, particularly the younger grades. Howver, they handed out a pamphlet explaining that they are exploring 'set aside' admission seats for children from low income families and ESL children. But to do this they would have the school 'de-zoned' and open it up to all families from District 17, selected by a lottery from priority groups. Therefore the #1 admissions priority group would change from families within the zone with siblings currently enrolled in school, to families within the district with siblings currently enrolled in the school. Oh, and did I mention that many of the most active parents are outside of the zone but within the district?? Many of them have one child there and one younger child with no guarantee of a spot with the siblings. I believe their thinking is that the school will be desirable and will only be attended by families that can afford the neighborhood. However, this is certainly not the case with any school in District 13 (Fort Green, Brooklyn Heights, etc). D15 is an entirely different story. It's suspicious because this zone has many many lower income families already. It has one of the highest concentration of income restricted tax credit properties in Brooklyn (http://www.novoco.com/low_income_housing/resources/maps_data.php). These properties have hard income restrictions in place for at least 15 years. So even when this neighborhoods gentrifies, there will be many low income families remaining.
-
I think the Yeshivas are truly a problem not just in NYC but throughout the state. (see: Ramapo)I went to a Fundraiser for my school last night. One of the parents who performed was born and raised Crown Heights. He talked about how he moved to District 1 not so that his kid got a better education but so that his kid interacted with kids in school unlike himself. The East Village is actually diverse. I have kids of all races, from celebrity children to EBT and housing projects. District 1 does something no other district does in NYC: you're zoned to district one, but then you pick which school within the district you want to go to. As long as that school has room, they take you. It allows for kids to get a progressive education at my school or a more traditional education down the street - without being a haves/haves nots situation.Get rid of charters and private schools and see how quickly things get fixed. When we are all in the same sinking boat the water is bailed out much more quickly.
-
Xlizellx,Thanks for your comments. I've really enjoyed reading them. What (if any) public elementary schools in Crown Heights would you recommend?Thanks!!
-
If we were to get rid of the charters and the private schools, wouldn't there just be more pressure on the local public schools to create more AP classes and Special Ed ?Note: I am assuming people can't move because every surrounding district somehow eliminates them as well, and at the same time.
-
I don't have any first hand knowledge of Crown Heights schools except the now closed PS22.Maybe more AP classes (not a bad thing) probably not more special ed since, a) the kids in private/charters aren't special ed usually, b) IEPs legally shouldn't change based on demographics, c) the new special education reform is closing special ed classes, not opening them.
-
Do you think Advocates For Children could get the special Ed laws you reference enforced in such a situation?http://www.advocatesforchildren.org/They only have about 10 attorneys for the city, and mostly count on schools not calling their bluff re: legal action.
-
The DOE loves the law...cheaper for them! They need less teachers since kids who had been in 12-1-1 rooms are not integrated into gen ed rooms and special ed teachers now don't have their own rooms but push into multiple rooms to support kids part of the time (under the new law, special ed services 60% of the time equal "full time")
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds