Schools

Unlike other NYS school districts, NYC property taxes do not directly contribute to school budgets. If they did, the public would have to vote on a school budget, like they do in the 'burbs.

Thanks for the explanation!

Whynot, your comments about how PS 9 began to "integrate" are very interesting. I think another relevant element to attracting these "new" families to PS 9 was the offering of a gifted and talented program (started 3-4 years ago??). I've heard stories from neighborhood families zoned for PS 9 who have recently chosen to send their kids elsewhere because they did not get into the gifted program. They didn't want their child in the general ed class at PS 9. Today, the school does attract students of different races and economics BUT the gifted classes are 95% white and the general education classes are 95% students of color. This might vary per grade but the racial segregation is very visible if you were to walk into a gifted class versus general education class. So PS 9 has found a way to get these families in the door but the school remains pretty segregated within.

HOWEVER, often schools that want to attract new populations start a gifted program (or more recently, dual language) and then years down the road, get rid of it once there is a more racial and economic balance. This has happened at PS 10 in Park Slope and PS 261 in Boerum Hill. Both schools used to have gifted programs but phased them out in recent years and now are quite diverse and high performing academically. It will be interesting to see if PS 9 drops the gifted program in a few years once the scales tip and the racial and economic ratios are represented differently. I'm not advocating that schools in District 17 start more gifted programs but it seems to be a tactic.

Nearsighted wrote:

"So PS 9 has found a way to get these families in the door but the school remains pretty segregated within. "

That's no surprise

I do hope you are successful soon, because spending lots of $ on a private school, moving, or faking an address seem like lousy options.

Do we have any PS316 or PS138 parents here?

The children of the PS9 cadre of parents I described above, now appear to be in the Third Grade.

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140528/prospect-heights/parents-boycotting-standardized-test-for-prospect-heights-third-graders

as a parent at ps 9, I just wanted to correct some misinformation above so that it's not sitting out there in the ether.

it is completely and utterly not true that the g&t classes are 95% white. the composition varies from year to year and grade to grade as the DOE continues to place kids in the class from all over the district, but if I had to guess, I would say the program is probably 35% white overall and even in the younger grades it is far less dominant white than the "progressive" charter/choice schools that regularly tout their diversity.

the gen ed classes are less diverse, agreed, but it is nowhere near 95% black as suggested above, especially now that there are dual language and ICT classes. i agree to some extent that the presence of g&t (and possibly dual language) is slowing the integration of gen ed classes, and that is something there is a lot of ambivalence about at the school. the gen ed teachers are good, the curriculum is planned jointly across the grade, classes get the same enrichments, the kids mix in a variety of ways, many of the parents are very involved & all resources are shared equally...but it is very difficult when there is "presorting" and your kid is sorted out.

unfortunately, the DOE is not likely to end what is a very popular and very successful g&t program, especially in the regime where "school choice" is king. the last time parents at PS 9 got together to try to end g&t, there were a lot of vocal families from *outside* the school's "gentrifier" families (i.e., the parents who were here well before whynot's "cadre,") that have relied on g&t for their own school choice who strongly wanted to keep the program. complicated!

much more to say, but ultimately the point is that PS 9 is working really well for a lot of people - it can always get better but as far as diversity and school culture go (and, of course, the actual educating of actual kids), it's a good place doing a lot of good things. and now I will return your to crown heights schools discussion.

This article goes here:

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140609/financial-district/boost-diversity-at-top-high-schools-by-changing-entry-test-lawmakers-say

So, is the test the problem?

Many of the kids that take that test attend extra tutoring classes. The city used to provide such classes for free and many middle schools used to run their own prep programs. Almost all of those have gone away now. The city has one prep program, but in order to get in you have to have gotten high scores on the 5th grade standardized exams, have a minimum gpa and a minimum attendance rate for school. This weeds out a lot of kids who 1) don't blossom academically until later in middle school, 2) are good testers but bad classroom students, 3) have issues at home that interrupt their schooling (homelessness, illness, etc).

Wow, I had no idea that there was no school-based tutoring for these kids. This just pushes out more and more kids. I read the numbers for one of the top schools, under 30 Latino and African-American students in a school of 952. How can this be legal?

Probably the best that NYC offers is the Specialized High School Institute, which is a program to help economically disadvantaged students prepare for the exam. http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/shsi/default.htm

I believe this was the inaugural year for 316's G&T. At least that's what the principal told me they were planning last spring. She is very committed, and hands on. She had grand plans of applying for PYP (primary years program- the elementary extension of the International Baccelaureate). I don't see them being approved, but the fact that she's open to such an inquiry-based, interdisciplinary curriculum speaks volumes. This may be the "progressive" school folks are seeking after all.

My personal problem with 316 is the lack of supervision at dismissal, as well as the tolerance of violence and obscene language on the playground. If this elusive "cadre" of which whynot speaks we're to materialize, I might be game.

Hi,

 

First off, wow. Haven't been on this site with any regularity in about a year and a half. Hi all!

Our daughter has been at 316 since Pre-K, she's now 7 and wrapping up 2nd grade. My wife has been heavily involved here for the last four years, serving at various points on both the PTA and the SLT. 316 is really a great school, with, at least in our experience, dedicated teachers as well as great music and science programs. Our son will also be starting there next school year in Pre-K. Ms. Maloof, the current principal, is in fact working very hard to continue making improvements to all aspects of the school. The G&T program just started this year, and as of now I believe only encompasses Pre-K and Kindergarten, with plans to expand to higher greades. Very little to complain about here.

Regarding the post I've quoted above - be sure you're not experiencing the middle school located on the second floor of the same building. By and large, the older kids do indeed use foul language, and fights often break out on the sidewalks and even on school grounds. I'm also sure that some kids in 316, particularly on the playground or when the school lets out, also get into some foul language issues. But that happens far less than the middle school kids.

 

One other thing to keep in mind is that there is now more competition for talented black and hispanic students to attend elite private schools, both in NYC and boarding schools. I'm seeing a lot of kids opting into this track through programs like Prep for Prep, A Better Chance, Oliver Scholars, etc. that didn't exist at the same scale when most of us were coming up. These programs pull a lot of kids out of the pipeline for the elite public schools. Not to mention there are five additional elite public schools now including ones in Queens and Staten Island. Some of those students are kids that would have traditionally ended up in one of the big three.

That's a question that's come up in California where the UC Berkley has become a majority minority school with asians making up almost 40% of undergrads and all other minorities representing another 27%. One of the interesting developments has been that as the African American population continues to drop, the number of accepted AA students that choose to attend the school has also dropped precipitously (in 2013 only 40% of those accepted chose to attend). I think Stuyvesant has some of the same problems where kids don't feel like they will be represented and therefore choose a school where they'll be less of a minority. It will be interesting to see how many of the seven kids (or 21 Latinos) they admitted this year will actually start school on day 1.

I think that it is really difficult to change the admissions structure to the elite public high schools program. The Standardized High School Admission Test (SHSAT), like the LSAT and the MCAT, fairly accurately predicts how well students will do in a truly academically rigorous environment. If you don't do well on the SHSAT, you probably won't do well at an elite public high school, where the curriculum is structured in such a way that the teachers assume a large amount of base knowledge and academic readiness. These schools are not set up to provide remedial education, except through an optional summer program that takes kids who performed at a borderline level on the exam and gets them ready for the elite schools. 

So, adjusting the admissions formula to these schools will be awfully hard, because on one hand you have the argument that prepping for the test, either on your own with the prep book or through a prep class or because you went to PS 321 and had a great education and test well, rewards those who really want to be at the high school. On the other hand, you have he truly disheartening de facto segregation of these schools in terms of the number of Black and Hispanic students, and any formula that tries to increase their representation will be accused of being race affirmative action, which is politically untenable and not smiled upon by many courts. 

My solution, all you politicos who read this blog, is that only by increasing the academic rigor of all NYC elementary and middle schools will you really be able to solve the root problem. If more kids are academically ready, then more kids have the cognitive skills and study skills to be able to succeed at the SHSAT and those elite schools. And I'd give every NYC public school student a free SHSAT prep book in 5th or 6th grade, along with an annual program that raised awareness about the elite high schools and the admissions stuff you have to do in order to get in. And I'd hire additional guidance counselors at any school with, say, more than 40% free lunch attendance, so that they can identify students who could be successful at the elite schools and push them to prepare for the test and help with the high school admissions process.

I'm fairly passionate about this subject. I got into an elite high school and an elite college on the merit of my exam scores (as well as my GPA), which I prepared for diligently on my own, with library rental prep books. My family did not expect that much and did not believe in test prep, so I do fully believe that kids who really want the elite high school experience will figure out how to get in. Of course, even knowing that schools like Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech exist is a huge part of the game...and you can't prep for an opportunity that has never been presented to you as an option. Truly hard stuff to grapple with. 

It is my hope that if NYC elementary and middle schools really up their game, and get students excited about learning, that there will be so many qualified students passing the SHSAT that they will have to open more elite high schools. And wouldn't that be amazing?

YESSS!!!! THIS!!!